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Forums - General Discussion - God Didn't Create Universe

FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?

It's the first law of  thermodynamics that states something can't come from nothing. If something did come from nothing then  it's  greater than the law of thermodynamics(as well as  human understanding). 

We have strong reason to believe  the universe contains intelligence and creators. ;)



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FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?


I did not quote properly, but I was referencing a post earlier where someone stated that Hawking never said God did not create the universe. He only said he was unnecessary. My point was that if Hawking maintained that God created the universe and also maintained that the universe was completely explained without God, Hawking would be adding unneeded complexity to the explanation of the universe. If there is no reason to bring God into the picture, adding God would just be adding complexity to the explanation. Because the base explanation would always be simpler, theists would not want to adopt the idea that God created the universe but is unnecessary.

As far as I know, most religions maintain that God is eternal. They would not say God created himself or came from nothing. This is not something scientists try to attribute to the universe. The universe came into existence at the Big Bang, so even if theists were willing to allow for an eternal universe, it is not something scientists would adopt. It might not be a convincing argument to some, but the reason why theists will attribute these characteristics to God and not to other things is that He is supernatural by definition. This means he can operate outside the laws of the universe. As I said before, God is generally described as eternal, so He did not come from nothing. Even granting that he did, because something supernatural comes from nothing does not mean something natural can come from nothing.



Smidlee said:
FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?

It's the first law of  thermodynamics that states something can't come from nothing. If something did come from nothing then  it's  greater than the law of thermodynamics(as well as  human understanding). 

We have strong reason to believe  the universe contains intelligence and creators. ;)


Something cannot come from nothing actually comes from the ancient Greek philosophers. Its a metaphysical claim about the structure of reality, and the meaning of the sentence has more to do with language than actual observation. The laws of thermodynamics essentially say the same thing in more technical fashion. They just deal exclusively with closed systems.



GameOver22 said:
FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?


I did not quote properly, but I was referencing a post earlier where someone stated that Hawking never said God did not create the universe. He only said he was unnecessary. My point was that if Hawking maintained that God created the universe and also maintained that the universe was completely explained without God, Hawking would be adding unneeded complexity to the explanation of the universe. If there is no reason to bring God into the picture, adding God would just be adding complexity to the explanation. Because the base explanation would always be simpler, theists would not want to adopt the idea that God created the universe but is unnecessary.

As far as I know, most religions maintain that God is eternal. They would not say God created himself or came from nothing. This is not something scientists try to attribute to the universe. The universe came into existence at the Big Bang, so even if theists were willing to allow for an eternal universe, it is not something scientists would adopt. It might not be a convincing argument to some, but the reason why theists will attribute these characteristics to God and not to other things is that He is supernatural by definition. This means he can operate outside the laws of the universe. As I said before, God is generally described as eternal, so He did not come from nothing. Even granting that he did, because something supernatural comes from nothing does not mean something natural can come from nothing.

Well of course a scientest wouldn't say that. But what I meant was that its hypocritical to say that things can't be eternal but god can. Its a double standard and inconsistent. That is all.



Smidlee said:
FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?

It's the first law of  thermodynamics that states something can't come from nothing. If something did come from nothing then  it's  greater than the law of thermodynamics(as well as  human understanding). 

We have strong reason to believe  the universe contains intelligence and creators. ;)

Who created that intelligence and creators? After all something can't come from nothing...



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?

It's the first law of  thermodynamics that states something can't come from nothing. If something did come from nothing then  it's  greater than the law of thermodynamics(as well as  human understanding). 

We have strong reason to believe  the universe contains intelligence and creators. ;)

Who created that intelligence and creators? After all something can't come from nothing...


or something always existed.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

MrBubbles said:
sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?

It's the first law of  thermodynamics that states something can't come from nothing. If something did come from nothing then  it's  greater than the law of thermodynamics(as well as  human understanding). 

We have strong reason to believe  the universe contains intelligence and creators. ;)

Who created that intelligence and creators? After all something can't come from nothing...


or something always existed.

Sorry, that's just hypocrisy.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
MrBubbles said:
sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?

It's the first law of  thermodynamics that states something can't come from nothing. If something did come from nothing then  it's  greater than the law of thermodynamics(as well as  human understanding). 

We have strong reason to believe  the universe contains intelligence and creators. ;)

Who created that intelligence and creators? After all something can't come from nothing...


or something always existed.

Sorry, that's just hypocrisy.


clarify.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

MrBubbles said:
sapphi_snake said:
MrBubbles said:
sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?

It's the first law of  thermodynamics that states something can't come from nothing. If something did come from nothing then  it's  greater than the law of thermodynamics(as well as  human understanding). 

We have strong reason to believe  the universe contains intelligence and creators. ;)

Who created that intelligence and creators? After all something can't come from nothing...


or something always existed.

Sorry, that's just hypocrisy.


clarify.

How can something always exist?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
MrBubbles said:
sapphi_snake said:
MrBubbles said:
sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
FaRmLaNd said:
GameOver22 said:

If God is unnecessary, God would be eliminated by Ockham's razor. There would be no reason to posture God if the universe was completely explained in scientific terms. For this reasons, theists would not accept the idea of an unnecessary God.

Well thats been the case for a long time and doesn't really require science to point that out. Its as simple as this. Many theists say something can't come from nothing. But where did God come from? He always existed or created himself or whatever way you want to spin it. Thats a double standard. If God can come from nothing or always existed, why not just skip a step and apply that to the universe. Why does God get some kind of special status? If something can come from nothing, then surely other things can. Such as the Universe? Why regress to God?

It's the first law of  thermodynamics that states something can't come from nothing. If something did come from nothing then  it's  greater than the law of thermodynamics(as well as  human understanding). 

We have strong reason to believe  the universe contains intelligence and creators. ;)

Who created that intelligence and creators? After all something can't come from nothing...


or something always existed.

Sorry, that's just hypocrisy.


clarify.

How can something always exist?

Just because we, as humans, cant comprehend something doesnt mean it isnt true.  We are very limited beings.  Your options are: everything/something came from nothing, or everything/something always existed......or you got some unknown unknowns which are pointless to discuss since they are unknown.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur