@Shio - Until 2008 I was a PC gamer, the difference is I've seen all my friends leave the PC gaming scene to play something called MMORPG's.  PC gaming is dead as far as I'm concerned until the next generation of consoles kick in so we get some real advances in technology.  MW2 was the last straw for me and the nail in the coffin of PC gaming until someone realises they need to listen to the consumer.  Bioshock and Mass Effect have, since release, always been more expensive on Steam, it's no surprise they've suddenly dropped in price now they want to sell the sequels.  How much is Bioshock 2 and Mass Effect 2 compared to retail now?

The only games that kept me even slightly interested in gaming on my PC have been TF2, DoD:S, CS:S, L4D and COD:MW, can't see much on the horizon to change my mind at the moment and it's rather depressing.  Shame I don;t like the MMORPG or RTS genre particularly or I'd be happy I guess.

I don't mind paying for Live because it's a far superior social network than Steam and as many features I enjoy using completely integrated (unlike Steam and it's associated platform) and can be used by anyone from a child to adult (fair enough if you disagree).

Sorry to not quote you but I couldn't be bothered cutting the quote tree up.

Now is that billions of revenue? Do we actually know how much money they are making?

If you're gonna say PC gaming is growing. Lets bear in mind what's actually growing. Its mostly the games Steam does not sell. PC gaming is riddled in piracy and that's why most games don't even get released on the PC.

The Xbox brand isn't out of the red yet, but that could change in the coming years. Xbox Live a lone is generating billions now.

Lets also bear in mind that GFWL is still growing. I guarantee it'll be a major competitor of Steam in the coming years. Especially now that its adding games without Live support. And Live is still getting support from developers... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Games_for_Windows_titles#Upcoming_Games_for_Windows_titles

GFWL also has the potential of getting great exclusives that won't come to Steam. Fable III is a great example. Its also the only service that offers Gears of War. Their list of great exclusives will grow.

You're not a PC Gamer. I'll tell you why:

A PC Gamer knows that MMORPGs are part of PC Gaming. Your friends didn't leave PC Gaming. I don't know why some console gamers have the need to seperate MMOs from PC Gaming.

MW2 was an exception. And because of their shitty decision, they lost costumers, their sales suffered and sold much less than COD4 did on PC.

This is what I find funny: Steam is a much better service than XBL and is entirely free. ALL Steam games ARE integrated! You can use send messages, use friends list, etc... IN ALL STEAM GAMES. Using the Steam Cloud and other features are just benefits.

Here's the best part: If you stop paying for XBL, you will lose your entire account, along with your achievements, gamerscore, etc... Steam doesn't have this problem.

Better yet, Steam has unlimited downloads, while Xbox Live has a 5 downloads limit. After 5 downloads you are forced to call Microsoft support. Funny, huh?

There's a reason why Steam is winning is flying colours in an open platform. Many reasons infact.

If I stop paying for xbox live it reverts to a silver account so I dont lose anything, that's fact.

I've never called Microsoft support and I've downloaded hundred of files, again incorrect and possibly out of date information.

If you want to call a MMORPG player, gamers, that's your perogative, I happen to think your wrong comparing a genre that rewards time played more than actual skill as a true gamers game.  No point arguing with me on this, you'll never change my opinion on the damage they've done to PC gaming.

MW2 was an exception which is why Left 4 Dead uses matchmaking too (and more in the pipeline)???

Steam has unlimited downloads if you're prepared to pay extortionate fees for new games, I agree.

Here's the best part the biggest thing Steam has going for it on the PC platform is at least I don't have to deal with bonkers DRM like I experienced with Bioshock 2 retail that meant I spent 1 hour googling answers for why the game didn't install properly.

I was a PC gamer first and foremost since the days of DR-DOS then indeed the joys of MS-DOS (mainly for memmaker), I know you don't have the credentials to judge me in this regard.

All files/games/videos have a 5 downloads limit. If you download a game you paid on XBLA, like Braid, you can only download it 5 times, then you're forced to call Microsoft support. You didn't even know that?!

I bought Half-Life for $0.99, and many other cool games for that price on Steam. I bought Mass Effect and Bioshock for $5, I bought Borderlands for $10, Witcher for $10, Mount & Blade for $7.50, Eve Online for $2, L4D2 for $13, Portal for $0, Zeno Clash with a 50% discount BEFORE IT WAS RELEASED, etc...

Last weekend I struggled to NOT buy Mount & Blade: Warband for $10. I struggle almost every week to NOT buy games on Steam. And I only buy on Steam, now imagine those PC gamers that also buy on Impulse, Gamersgate, GOG.com, Metaboli, etc...

And what the fuck are you talking about MW2?! Matchmaking?! That shows your ignorance about what why MW2 was so crushed by the PC community. The problem was not the matchmaking.... the problem was the lack of DEDICATED SERVERS!!!! And it was a piss at the modding community!!!!

Valve are a private company so they don't have to release their finances to the public but they appear to be highly successful for a relatively small company. The only thing I can find on Valve's profits is from 2005 and it doesn't give figures which is a bit of a pain. Does give some infor on the Valve-Developer split for third party titles:

http://steamreview.org/posts/finances/

Does seem to suggest in 2005 that Valve were financially doing well and that profits from digital sales were highly profitable (Doug Lombardi on Half-Life 2 in 2005):

http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?story=37380

Found a better summary on wiki:

"In 2005, the first third-party games began to appear on Steam. Valve also announced that Steam was starting to be profitable, if only due to some highly successful Valve games. Although digital distribution was still no match to retail in terms of sales volume, profit margins for Valve and developers were far bigger on Steam than at retail.^[52] Gabe Newell, CEO of Valve, estimated in 2002 that $30 gross profit can be made from a $50 game sold over Steam, much greater than the $7.50 profit made from games sold through retail.^[41]

In 2007, big developer-publishers such as Eidos Interactive, Capcom, and id Software started to distribute their games on Steam. In May 2007, 13 million accounts had been created on Steam, and 150 games were for sale on the platform.^[53] In October 2007, the release of The Orange Box, and the distribution of high-profile games such as BioShock, Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, and S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl, helped increase Steam's popularity.^{[citation needed]}"

Since then DD has increased and we see that with the sheer volume of games now on Steam.

As for GFWL, you realise that half of the games on that fairly small list don't feature GFWL? They're Games for Windows which is effectively nothing more than an extra label on the box and during installation. Other than that it does nothing, so the support is rather mediocre. It even mentions Fallout New Vegas which has full Steam integration and Steamworks with no Live support.

As for the exlusives list only Fable III is the only one that looks to be a big seller. Gears released a year late with bugs and the PC never got the sequel and there's no news of Gears 3. Even Age of Empires Online looks "Farmvilled". Where's all the other big exclusives that could be released? Potential won't make the service a rival to Steam.

Digital download sales have grown while retail sales are likely shrinking. I'd also assume piracy has grown tremendously with Torrents.

Safe bet that Steam is doing well considering its the most popular digital download service for PC games. But I highly doubt its the big earner you and shio thinks.

In my opinion, GFWL is still a work in progress. They are getting more support, new games are being added to the library, and MS will be releasing some major games that will be exclusive to GFWL. Is this not proof they are trying to get the service off the ground?

Also, a lot of people already have GFWL already installed on their computers. Lets bear in mind quite a few popular games have require it.

Wowzers, you spend all that money! Developers must be getting rich with all your nickels and dimes!

Steam must make billions getting their share of that too...

If fortune telling is your specialty why waste it here?  Live went up how many dollars since 2002?

 I'm much more concerned about therising price of automobile fuel, or even a car...  cars have increased by thousands of dollars in the last decade .. The "Le Cars" of the world went from like $5 Grand to $10 Grand, and cars like my parents bought 10 yrs ago for $15 grand are now $26 GRAND ... Somehow, just someway I think the world will surive an Xbox Live increase of ten bucks a year..    

This is bullshit, More reason to play games on my ps3 instread