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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Abbie Heppe (G4TV): Metroid: Other M is Sexist

Darc Requiem said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
RolStoppable said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

Um, Abbie didn't mean sexism in terms of how Samus is treated by the characters in the game. She meant how Samus is characterized. Had what you mentioned been the only thing, it's likely Abbie wouldn't have called it sexist.

Who are you going to trust more? The people here on VGC who have made several thousand posts, so it's likely that you know them quite well, or a gaming journalist?

Other M may not be the Metroid that the fans wanted, but it can't be so bad that we trust gaming journalists now. Right?


I distrust them for prejudices, like how a game is automatically not as good because it's one the Wii, or for letting reviews basically be bought. Identifying with a strong character, and feeling that everything great about that character is stripped away is not a prejudice or gushing because they need to hype a game for revenue. It's an opinion that can be discussed (not just dismissed).

Now I'll give that likely wasn't sexist in terms of deliberately demeaning women, but it's still turning a great character into a joke.


That's the thing. You can't strip away something that isn't there. Traditionally Nintendo have avoided giving their characters detailed personalities. Simply put, Abbie didn't like Samus' personality in Other M because she'd had her own preconceived vision of what Samus was supposed to be. Her idolized Samus and the actual Samus aren't the same and she threw a fit about it. This is the danger of Nintendo "filling in the blanks" of their characters. People have their own ideas built up over more than two decades of how a character is supposed to be and they don't like when you deviate from their vision.


This seems to be the biggest issue people have, I think this solves the whole "should Link have a voice" debate, Link is the hero, the hero you want to be and you can imagine his character however you want even though some of it is implied none of his hurts and pains are voiced.  Samus on the other hand has been the most voiced character outside of Nintendo's RPG games, she's been shown to have heart, and pains in the past, this game just fleshes them out more than they've ever been and personally it's made me very excited in some scenes cause you have the issues but knowing there were some real emotional strength to push through.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

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MaxwellGT2000 said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
RolStoppable said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

Um, Abbie didn't mean sexism in terms of how Samus is treated by the characters in the game. She meant how Samus is characterized. Had what you mentioned been the only thing, it's likely Abbie wouldn't have called it sexist.

Who are you going to trust more? The people here on VGC who have made several thousand posts, so it's likely that you know them quite well, or a gaming journalist?

Other M may not be the Metroid that the fans wanted, but it can't be so bad that we trust gaming journalists now. Right?


I distrust them for prejudices, like how a game is automatically not as good because it's one the Wii, or for letting reviews basically be bought. Identifying with a strong character, and feeling that everything great about that character is stripped away is not a prejudice or gushing because they need to hype a game for revenue. It's an opinion that can be discussed (not just dismissed).

Now I'll give that likely wasn't sexist in terms of deliberately demeaning women, but it's still turning a great character into a joke.


That line is a joke lol but really you've done nothing but scream WEASEL TACTICS! (1)Whenever someone is like "play the game you'll get it" the reason for this?  Cause you really just need to experience it to get the effect, its not something you can get watching the couple minute long cut scene(2), *SPOILER* the fight with Ridley was a build up in the game(3) and hell even a surprise if people wouldn't FUCKING SPOIL IT(4), the entire game has some WHERE DID THAT COME FROM moments so spoilers in general can ruin this game.  

The only problem I would say is legit is the having to get permission to use your suit upgrades, it could easily be worked in that your suit was badly damaged and the upgrades no longer work, the weapons make sense since you're under command of a superior officer and his reasons are laid out like this, you don't know the threats within the station, powerful weapons can be harmful to civilians and teammates, and you're not authorized unless you HAVE to have it... all of this is explained within the first few minutes you cannot miss it or misconstrue it as sexism the entire team has to follow these orders.  

I really don't know why you would even listen to a review that doesn't even focus on the smooth and down right badass game play but would rather harp on something that doesn't exist in the game.  I mean when you and a bunch of people who haven't even played the game are the only ones supporting the downright stupid opinions of this and similar reviews and the people who have played and beaten it are telling you the things they're using as points are taken out of context... why would you continue to follow the misguided opinions?

1. No, I have not. Even hyperbole doesn't excuse claiming that's all I've done. Furthermore, in a post which you should read, I explain why I have a problem with just going "Out of context" and then not explaining the context.

2. No, the stroy will not magically get better if I have the controller in my hand. Nor will it somehow make sense only if I watch the whole thing, but somehow can't be explained in words. No story works that way, so it can't work here. Just insisting playing the game makes it all better is not an explaination.

Furthermore, the point of the thread is about someone who has played the game, so the out of context line doesn't apply, since she obviously has the context. She still chose to dislike what she saw.

3. And? That doesn't justify Samus being crippled with fear.

4. WHAT? You think letting us know of fighting Ridley would be a spoiler? Are you *#@%ing kidding me?

I can't even read the rest of your post. The line just dumfounded me. You really think the fact that Ridley appears would be a spoiler? And you mean the game actually tries to build this up as though it would be a surprise?

Please tell me it doesn't do that. Tell me it does that in a way that doesn't think we haven't even played a Metroid game.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

LordTheNightKnight said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
RolStoppable said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

Um, Abbie didn't mean sexism in terms of how Samus is treated by the characters in the game. She meant how Samus is characterized. Had what you mentioned been the only thing, it's likely Abbie wouldn't have called it sexist.

Who are you going to trust more? The people here on VGC who have made several thousand posts, so it's likely that you know them quite well, or a gaming journalist?

Other M may not be the Metroid that the fans wanted, but it can't be so bad that we trust gaming journalists now. Right?


I distrust them for prejudices, like how a game is automatically not as good because it's one the Wii, or for letting reviews basically be bought. Identifying with a strong character, and feeling that everything great about that character is stripped away is not a prejudice or gushing because they need to hype a game for revenue. It's an opinion that can be discussed (not just dismissed).

Now I'll give that likely wasn't sexist in terms of deliberately demeaning women, but it's still turning a great character into a joke.


That line is a joke lol but really you've done nothing but scream WEASEL TACTICS! (1)Whenever someone is like "play the game you'll get it" the reason for this?  Cause you really just need to experience it to get the effect, its not something you can get watching the couple minute long cut scene(2), *SPOILER* the fight with Ridley was a build up in the game(3) and hell even a surprise if people wouldn't FUCKING SPOIL IT(4), the entire game has some WHERE DID THAT COME FROM moments so spoilers in general can ruin this game.  

The only problem I would say is legit is the having to get permission to use your suit upgrades, it could easily be worked in that your suit was badly damaged and the upgrades no longer work, the weapons make sense since you're under command of a superior officer and his reasons are laid out like this, you don't know the threats within the station, powerful weapons can be harmful to civilians and teammates, and you're not authorized unless you HAVE to have it... all of this is explained within the first few minutes you cannot miss it or misconstrue it as sexism the entire team has to follow these orders.  

I really don't know why you would even listen to a review that doesn't even focus on the smooth and down right badass game play but would rather harp on something that doesn't exist in the game.  I mean when you and a bunch of people who haven't even played the game are the only ones supporting the downright stupid opinions of this and similar reviews and the people who have played and beaten it are telling you the things they're using as points are taken out of context... why would you continue to follow the misguided opinions?

1. No, I have not. Even hyperbole doesn't excuse claiming that's all I've done. Furthermore, in a post which you should read, I explain why I have a problem with just going "Out of context" and then not explaining the context.

2. No, the stroy will not magically get better if I have the controller in my hand. Nor will it somehow make sense only if I watch the whole thing, but somehow can't be explained in words. No story works that way, so it can't work here. Just insisting playing the game makes it all better is not an explaination.

Furthermore, the point of the thread is about someone who has played the game, so the out of context line doesn't apply, since she obviously has the context. She still chose to dislike what she saw.

3. And? That doesn't justify Samus being crippled with fear.

4. WHAT? You think letting us know of fighting Ridley would be a spoiler? Are you *#@%ing kidding me?

I can't even read the rest of your post. The line just dumfounded me. You really think the fact that Ridley appears would be a spoiler? And you mean the game actually tries to build this up as though it would be a surprise?

Please tell me it doesn't do that. Tell me it does that in a way that doesn't think we haven't even played a Metroid game.


Haha please stop with the arguing just for the sake of arguing it's really annoying.  And yeah it would be spoiler if you actually played Super Metroid he was dead like for good dead, he wasn't at the end of Metroid, he wasn't in the primes, and in super metroid Samus ended him.

And I put the spoiler tag as a courtesy for people actually wanting to play the game, which you obviously don't so why keep up this fight?  People that have played it have enjoyed it, probably the only one you could point out in the community that says otherwise is Kyliedog, the people not playing it are whining, what for?  I have no idea... seems pretty obvious to me who would be more trustworthy.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

spdk1 said:

Abbe and many others got pissy baout the PTSD scene where "a big strong man comes to save samus" which is not what happens, she obviously has no idea what she's talking about as that is a real way that it could manifest.  PTSD is not like a fear of heights, you can't go on an elevator and magically get over it, it stays with folks in many different ways.  Ridley killed her friggin family, even if she did kill him twice I would bet that there would be some stress there, no wonder that set her off.  He has become tripped up before in the games, but folks don't seem to like this idea.  In super metroid, right before Ridly picks up the baby, Samus sits motionless for a while, to me that is VERY similiar.  This has been pointed out around 50 times from other folks that have also played the game, the fact that folks refuse to get the game and hide behind abbe's and Mastrom's opinion despite all of the positive reviews rather than making their own irritates me.

 

You guys wanted Nintendo to add character to some games, well guess what Samus has character now and she isn't a butch female version of master chief.  She has fears emotions, problems with other folks etc... 

 

Oh Noes!!

I actually just got past the Ridley battle (fantastic fight btw) and this is what I have to say to those pierrot Heppe and Malstrom: go **** yourselves. I know, not polite, not objective, failed persuasive writing with that comment, but when I hear people say things that are so ignorant, baseless, and dare I say ARROGANT they deserve neither patience nor respect from anyone, doubly so for Heppe since she's supposed to be a proffessional. Samus freaking out over Ridley is NOT sexist; she is characterized as a strong, flawed, well-rounded human being with her own fears, anxieties, and nuances, far from the voiceless avatar she has been for most of the series.

Don't even get me started on the gameplay; the only annoyance I've had is from the scanning moments and suspsensions of disbelief is strained when you're not allowed your suit upgrades or the grapple beam (weapons and even the speed boost make complete sense though). Other than that everything is smooth as butter and razor sharp (oh, and the executions: eat your heart out Kratos). Voice acting also needs some work and the script has a habit of telling and not showing, but even then the gameplay far outweighs the cons of the story and the little nitpicks I could make. I haven't finished it yet, but it's right up there with Fusion in my book.



Aiddon said:
spdk1 said:

Abbe and many others got pissy baout the PTSD scene where "a big strong man comes to save samus" which is not what happens, she obviously has no idea what she's talking about as that is a real way that it could manifest.  PTSD is not like a fear of heights, you can't go on an elevator and magically get over it, it stays with folks in many different ways.  Ridley killed her friggin family, even if she did kill him twice I would bet that there would be some stress there, no wonder that set her off.  He has become tripped up before in the games, but folks don't seem to like this idea.  In super metroid, right before Ridly picks up the baby, Samus sits motionless for a while, to me that is VERY similiar.  This has been pointed out around 50 times from other folks that have also played the game, the fact that folks refuse to get the game and hide behind abbe's and Mastrom's opinion despite all of the positive reviews rather than making their own irritates me.

 

You guys wanted Nintendo to add character to some games, well guess what Samus has character now and she isn't a butch female version of master chief.  She has fears emotions, problems with other folks etc... 

 

Oh Noes!!

I actually just got past the Ridley battle (fantastic fight btw) and this is what I have to say to those pierrot Heppe and Malstrom: go **** yourselves. I know, not polite, not objective, failed persuasive writing with that comment, but when I hear people say things that are so ignorant, baseless, and dare I say ARROGANT they deserve neither patience nor respect from anyone, doubly so for Heppe since she's supposed to be a proffessional. Samus freaking out over Ridley is NOT sexist; she is characterized as a strong, flawed, well-rounded human being with her own fears, anxieties, and nuances, far from the voiceless avatar she has been for most of the series.

Don't even get me started on the gameplay; the only annoyance I've had is from the scanning moments and suspsensions of disbelief is strained when you're not allowed your suit upgrades or the grapple beam (weapons and even the speed boost make complete sense though). Other than that everything is smooth as butter and razor sharp (oh, and the executions: eat your heart out Kratos). Voice acting also needs some work and the script has a habit of telling and not showing, but even then the gameplay far outweighs the cons of the story and the little nitpicks I could make. I haven't finished it yet, but it's right up there with Fusion in my book.


The amount of emotional strength shown in that scene is pretty intense *SPOILER* before you enter you see the husk of that creature that has been following you the entire game, you know there is a traitor in your midsts as well, then ZOMG RED DOT IN YOUR FACE! So you think Anthony your best friend is the traitor, but you see he's just covering you, and then ZOMG RIDLEY!!!! Oh shit you were supposed to be dead, Anthony blasts him to save your life and then Anthony gets knocked off the side into the lava and Samus really wants to go save him but knows she has to kill Ridley and then the fight itself was so intense... not sexist at all... actually showing the emotional strength of Samus in that scene.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

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Mr Khan said:

And i believe Jarrod was being ironic by lobbing sexist comments at her, though i'm uncertain and entirely don't speak for him.

More or less.  My harsh speech was more for effect than anything, though I'll admit it was also a little cathartic.  If anyone really got offended, sorry.

There's legitimate sexism in games, and lots of it.  For someone like Abbie Hemppe, someone who's helped raise the profile of legitimately sexist games before, to cry sexism in a game like this where there's not even a real whiff of it, is damaging and misguided and manipulative.  It's what's actually offensive.



The game isn't really sexist, though I would argue that it offers a troubling view of what Sakamoto sees as inherently feminine. There is a difference.

Madeline Bergman and MB are also intersting but troubling in their own ways.



This post ( http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3618026 ) explains the apparent sexism well.

"I think Metroid Other M is suffering from being written and made with a Japanese audience in mind.  In Japan, women are expected to let men protect them instead of defending themselves.  To a Japanese person, Samus's characterization would be seen as normal whereas in the West, it is seen as sexist and offensive.  Samus is portrayed in Other M as weak for the same reason Final Fantasy games have bishonen characters in them, it is to appeal to a Japanese demographic who are the main demographic for those type of games."



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

LordTheNightKnight said:

This post ( http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3618026 ) explains the apparent sexism well.

"I think Metroid Other M is suffering from being written and made with a Japanese audience in mind.  In Japan, women are expected to let men protect them instead of defending themselves.  To a Japanese person, Samus's characterization would be seen as normal whereas in the West, it is seen as sexist and offensive.  Samus is portrayed in Other M as weak for the same reason Final Fantasy games have bishonen characters in them, it is to appeal to a Japanese demographic who are the main demographic for those type of games."

That's not inherent sexism even though, it's a cultural disconnect.  And past that, I'd argue the analysis is off the mark anyway, it's more about vulnerability than weakness.  Samus isn't 'weak' in this game, but she is damaged and vulnerable.  She's essentially gone from perfect Mary Sue to fucked up Human Being.

Again, a male could've filled Samus exact role in those scenes, and it wouldn't have made any narrative difference (male panicking and being rescued, male taking orders from a male commanding officer).  Only hypocritical attention seekers with bad sleeve tattoos probably wouldn't have called them sexist.



jarrod said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

This post ( http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3618026 ) explains the apparent sexism well.

"I think Metroid Other M is suffering from being written and made with a Japanese audience in mind.  In Japan, women are expected to let men protect them instead of defending themselves.  To a Japanese person, Samus's characterization would be seen as normal whereas in the West, it is seen as sexist and offensive.  Samus is portrayed in Other M as weak for the same reason Final Fantasy games have bishonen characters in them, it is to appeal to a Japanese demographic who are the main demographic for those type of games."

That's not inherent sexism even though, it's a cultural disconnect.  And past that, I'd argue the analysis is off the mark anyway, it's more about vulnerability than weakness.  Samus isn't 'weak' in this game, but she is damaged and vulnerable.  She's essentially gone from perfect Mary Sue to fucked up Human Being.

Again, a male could've filled Samus exact role in those scenes, and it wouldn't have made any narrative difference (male panicking and being rescued, male taking orders from a male commanding officer).  Only hypocritical attention seekers with bad sleeve tattoos probably wouldn't have called them sexist.


That's what that poster meant. How can you counter with the very point made? That makes it look as though you didn't really read it.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs