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Forums - General Discussion - The MYTH of American Islamophobia

Do we label Germans as being a hateful people because not too long ago they nearly wiped an entire religion off the face of the Earth?

If a man that called himself a radical Christian said that it is Gods will that he kill all the black people in United States, even though no where in his religion does it say to do such a thing, do we still label him a Christian?

A group of people that call themselves Muslim preach and do things that can not be found in the religion, in fact they go against what their religion asks of them. Just because they call themselves Muslim does not make them so. The people responsible for 9/11 are just as likely to blow up a Mosque in Iraq and if given the chance would kill most of the Muslims in the United Sates for being false in their beliefs including the ones building the Mosque in NY. So no building a Mosque near ground zero is not a victory monument, it is simply a place where people can go to pray and learn the true peaceful teachings of their religion.

Of course this is all under the assumption that their building a mosque which they aren't, it is a youth center open to anyone.



                                           

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FootballFan said:

I have a question based on the sensitivity vs responsibility arguement.

Lets say I went to someone's house and killed them then the police shot me down right there on the spot. My parents decided to buy a plot of land next to the other dead guys parents then built a statue (lets imagine they could do that) saying: "In memory of XYZ"

My parents would be perfectly allowed to build whatever they like based upon having these "Amercian freedoms", but in the circumstances, would it be right to specifically next to the other persons house based upon what had previously happened? It would clearly be insensitive when they probably be fine with building it just not in that exact radius.

Is it right to build a Chruch next to a Abortion clinic.....No

Is it right to build a mosque as part of the building....? This debate is going to rage on for years. Tbh I would be suprised if it ever gets fully built. In America thing's take years as it is to build...


Your example does nto make sense as the family of the killer is not the same relation as the other billion Muslims to the terrorist who plotted and performed the 9/11 attacks and the killer's actual tomb is not the same as a new Mosque.

Your example is a logical fallacy.



FootballFan said:
Slimebeast said:
haxxiy said:

That's just the way part of the media is, trying to cram their pseudo-liberal marxist revisionism and personal interests as true history. In time muslims are becoming the untouchable and inquestionable victims much like it happened with blacks in the past. 

You mean like in Sweden?

You mean like Britain?


Exactly! Here in Britain there are places where almost entire towns have become islamic and have muslims with megaphones saying not to let "kuffar" (an islamic slur that means non-muslims) in "their" towns (go to 03:55 to see an example of that):

We have thousands of violent muslims rioting in the streets all over the country quite often and in August 2001 (so therefore BEFORE "9/11") hundreds of muslims rioted in Oldham firebombing cars and buildings as well as the police when they turned up. But who got arrested? Some white people who dared to step out of their houses and shout at the rioters! Muslims are allowed to shout and hold up banners and placards with messages such as "KILL THE INFIDELS!" and "BEHEAD ALL THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM!" as well as even "GOD BLESS HITLER"!!! (They appreciate his jew killing.)

All this talk of "islamophobia" is crap. A phobia is an irrational fear of something, being concerned about an evil cult that was founded by a murderous, warmongering paedophile who preached death (or slavery if he was in a good mood, or even "just" having to pay jizya tax if he's feeling especially "merciful") to all who didn't submit to him and his new "religion" isn't an irrational fear! Of course not all muslims are evil terrorists, I'm sure the majority aren't, but the fact is that those that are evil terrorists (which aren't a "tiny minority" if you include the possibly hundreds of thousands of violent islamic rioters in the UK, which I do) are simply more dedicated to carrying out their "prophet"'s commands than their more "moderate" fellow believers.



superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:
superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:
 

It's the same difference.   I just put them closeley together because there literally isn't a comprably sized mosque.  Also your ignoring the fact that it's in direct view of 90% of people who view it.  Since it is right next to the WTC subway exit.

Though fine, it's 400 feet away, 15 stories tall... visible from the site, and you see it every day as you wait for the bus or go into the subway.  That's incredibly insensitive.

Heck, say this mosque gets built... and within a week is bombed by a fundamentalist christian group.  Then they build a 15 story church two blocks away and visible.

I've got a feeling you'd be pissed about the church. 

 

Also, it's not called being illogical.  It's called post traumatic stress disorder.

You are forcing a lot of the victims and victims families to relive the incident by putting it there.

omg.

1. You can't see it from Ground Zero. You need to take a better look at the locations.

2. Its not a "15 story Mosque" Its a 15 story building that on one floor will contain a Mosque.

3. Again no I wouldn't. As I stated earlier to the fictitious church/abortion clinic story, I do not have a irrational fear (phobia) of christians. I know the actions of one person is not the actions of the religion.

Islam in the US has a lot of misinformation beleive true by regular people that just breeds this Islamiphobia, especially when conflicts like thes are exacerbated among the media.

1.  Yes... you can.  You can't see it now... because it's not built.  However it's totally within view.  YOU need to take a better look.  Seriously.  It will be eaisly visibile on Vesey and Church street.

2.  Same difference?  It's going to be a 15 foot building with a dome.

3. It's got nothing to do with Phobias and everything to do with PTSD and just being REALLY damn insensitive.

1/2. Two very large buildings in the way. Sure you may be able to see top few floors of new building, but it will just look like any other tall building. After all the Mosque will only be part of one floor, not the whole building. Can you show me the plans of the new build to demonstrate what will be so offensive?

3. I just have to disagree with you here. I would never associate the terrorist action with anyone else but that specific group that carried out the attack. I have Palestinian family, yet I don't blame anyone but Israeli government laws and the extremist elements in Israel for their grievances. So I already have a real life example and already prove your point to be wrong.


1) Those buildings aren't "Very tall".  They are about two stories a piece... you can see by the picture.  I know i've been there.

2)  As for the plans for the building... look at the old community center... and every other building in the area.  Unless they radically change the buildign style for these type of buildings... it's very noticable.

3) Except you know... for the joke you had earlier in the thread made specifically on the basis of someones religion/race.



Mendicate Bias said:

Do we label Germans as being a hateful people because not too long ago they nearly wiped an entire religion off the face of the Earth?

If a man that called himself a radical Christian said that it is Gods will that he kill all the black people in United States, even though no where in his religion does it say to do such a thing, do we still label him a Christian?

A group of people that call themselves Muslim preach and do things that can not be found in the religion, in fact they go against what their religion asks of them. Just because they call themselves Muslim does not make them so. The people responsible for 9/11 are just as likely to blow up a Mosque in Iraq and if given the chance would kill most of the Muslims in the United Sates for being false in their beliefs including the ones building the Mosque in NY. So no building a Mosque near ground zero is not a victory monument, it is simply a place where people can go to pray and learn the true peaceful teachings of their religion.

Of course this is all under the assumption that their building a mosque which they aren't, it is a youth center open to anyone.

If you built a "german history muesuem" right next to the holocaust mueusum... I would take issue with that.

Or a confederacy hisotry muesuem right next to like the NAACP headquarters.

Legally this stuff is fine.  It's still in bad taste.



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Mendicate Bias said:

Do we label Germans as being a hateful people because not too long ago they nearly wiped an entire religion off the face of the Earth?

If a man that called himself a radical Christian said that it is Gods will that he kill all the black people in United States, even though no where in his religion does it say to do such a thing, do we still label him a Christian?

A group of people that call themselves Muslim preach and do things that can not be found in the religion, in fact they go against what their religion asks of them. Just because they call themselves Muslim does not make them so. The people responsible for 9/11 are just as likely to blow up a Mosque in Iraq and if given the chance would kill most of the Muslims in the United Sates for being false in their beliefs including the ones building the Mosque in NY. So no building a Mosque near ground zero is not a victory monument, it is simply a place where people can go to pray and learn the true peaceful teachings of their religion.

Of course this is all under the assumption that their building a mosque which they aren't, it is a youth center open to anyone.

This!



superchunk said:
FootballFan said:

I have a question based on the sensitivity vs responsibility arguement.

Lets say I went to someone's house and killed them then the police shot me down right there on the spot. My parents decided to buy a plot of land next to the other dead guys parents then built a statue (lets imagine they could do that) saying: "In memory of XYZ"

My parents would be perfectly allowed to build whatever they like based upon having these "Amercian freedoms", but in the circumstances, would it be right to specifically next to the other persons house based upon what had previously happened? It would clearly be insensitive when they probably be fine with building it just not in that exact radius.

Is it right to build a Chruch next to a Abortion clinic.....No

Is it right to build a mosque as part of the building....? This debate is going to rage on for years. Tbh I would be suprised if it ever gets fully built. In America thing's take years as it is to build...


Your example does nto make sense as the family of the killer is not the same relation as the other billion Muslims to the terrorist who plotted and performed the 9/11 attacks and the killer's actual tomb is not the same as a new Mosque.

Your example is a logical fallacy.

If you had read the first sentence correctly you would have noticed I was talking about the sensitivity vs responsibility argument. I wanted to know how far these "American Freedoms" will stretch.

I was just curious as to if it would or would not be allowed.



theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Once again... you are simply not looking at it correctly.

If, radical Christians killed your daughter in an abortion clinic bombing near your work.

How would you feel about an Church being put up right next to said ruins that you have to drive by every day?


The mosque being there will be a sign of america's greatness.

But the greatness that we even protect the rights of people when they use those rights to be giant assholes.

The same as the KKK's right to throwing racist protests is a sign of America's greatness.

I wouldn't do anything about it. I, my family, and my daughter are tragic victims of fate. I wouldn't dare to take revenge by terrorizing the innocent. And I don't deign to think that my actions have any impact on the security of my loved ones or of humanity itself.

Who is "terrorizing the innocent."

If anything this community center is going to "terrorize the innocent" by causing victims and victims families to suffer PTSD attacks.

It's the same reason you wouldn't build a church nearby a burned out abortion clinic.

You wouldn't call these protests terrorizing?

When you see the hate on these people's faces, I'm sure it terrorizes the shit out of the other side, who haven't done anything wrong. They try to control the actions of others through fear. That's the basic definition of the word.

Why haven't they been protesting the mosque that's already right there? 
And let me question you about the ptsd comment.

How do you quantify that into a value? 

Where is the line? How many people do you need to have, and how mentally imbalanced do they need to be? 

If there is one person suffering, does that qualify?

Because of the undefinable nature of your evidence, I find it hard to take into consideration. 

I believe that those people should be allowed to live happy lives, but by your earlier statements comparing one level of violence to another and implying that it wasn't a big deal, they should deal with it. Right?


You do realize your entire arguement in this paragraph has boiled down to "I think the protests are terrorizing... I want everybody to live happily without being terrorized... so let them build this building that will terrorize people."

You're arguement has a HUGE double standard in it.

They haven't been protesting the mosque that's already there because it's

A) Not 15 stories tall.

B) Not going to be visible from ground zero and the most popular access point of ground zero.



FootballFan said:
superchunk said:
FootballFan said:

I have a question based on the sensitivity vs responsibility arguement.

Lets say I went to someone's house and killed them then the police shot me down right there on the spot. My parents decided to buy a plot of land next to the other dead guys parents then built a statue (lets imagine they could do that) saying: "In memory of XYZ"

My parents would be perfectly allowed to build whatever they like based upon having these "Amercian freedoms", but in the circumstances, would it be right to specifically next to the other persons house based upon what had previously happened? It would clearly be insensitive when they probably be fine with building it just not in that exact radius.

Is it right to build a Chruch next to a Abortion clinic.....No

Is it right to build a mosque as part of the building....? This debate is going to rage on for years. Tbh I would be suprised if it ever gets fully built. In America thing's take years as it is to build...


Your example does nto make sense as the family of the killer is not the same relation as the other billion Muslims to the terrorist who plotted and performed the 9/11 attacks and the killer's actual tomb is not the same as a new Mosque.

Your example is a logical fallacy.

If you had read the first sentence correctly you would have noticed I was talking about the sensitivity vs responsibility argument. I wanted to know how far these "American Freedoms" will stretch.

I was just curious as to if it would or would not be allowed.

It would be allowed.  No law to stop it. 

Which is largely the point everyone ignores because they want to scream "OMG RACISTS!!!!!1!1!1!"

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should.



How quickly people forget 9/11.  I'll never forget the whole Muslim world celebrating this on TV and in print media.  It was a badge of honor and rallying cry.  Label me as a "right wing nutjob", you are not building a mosque anywhere around ground zero.  You can argue sensibly that this mosque is open to everyone and its a symbol of peace, its bullshit.  Its going to be spit in the face of America.  Muslims around the world will flock to this mosque to praise at their "greatest accomplishment". 



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