By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - The MYTH of American Islamophobia

superchunk on 26 August 2010
badgenome said:

You find it to be absurd, and it can be argued that there is no rational reason for the mosque not to be there, but there is certainly an emotional reason to locate it elsewhere. The overwhelming majority of Americans oppose it, and since the Cordoba Initiative says its mission is to build bridges, one would think they would see the value of respecting people's sensitivities. After all, the imam involved said during the Mohammed cartoon uproar that he respected freedom of speech but found the cartoons to be appalling and even a "willful fomentation" (and this at a time when death threats were flying like crazy).  So he, of all people, should understand that just because someone has the right to do something, doesn't mean they should.

I think most people's anger and frustration is less about "mulimz r terists" and more about the perception that tolerance is always going to be a one way street.

Its absurd because the grounds its being discussed don't even exists. Its not next to Ground Zero and you can't even see teh proposed site from Ground zero. Its just stupid and blown out of proportion thanks to half truths initially spurted by right wing media.

The cartoon is wholly different as that was a direct attack on an principle religious figure of an entire religion. I also found it offensive when in NY there were art exhibits showing Christ made out of feces etc. Its just rude and offensive. Not even in the same ball park as this issue.

I completely disagree with your last statement as I've seen the exact opposite from many people as quoted in their reasonings to why the Mosque shouldn't be allowed to be built.



Around the Network
FootballFan on 26 August 2010
superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Once again... you are simply not looking at it correctly.

If, radical Christians killed your daughter in an abortion clinic bombing near your work.

How would you feel about an Church being put up right next to said ruins that you have to drive by every day?


The mosque being there will be a sign of america's greatness.

But the greatness that we even protect the rights of people when they use those rights to be giant assholes.

I wouldn't care because I don't have a irrational fear (phobia) of Christians. I would know this was a terrorist action of a single group/person and not Christianity.

Plus, the most IS NOT NEXT DOOR TO GROUND ZERO! Its over 400ft away and only 80ft from an existing mosque.

Surely your last statement begs the question of the need to put this mosque here. 80ft from an existing mosque seems slightly pointless and makes me think that the person who is funding the building of the religous structure could have alternative intentions. Perhaps not.....but thats the immediate feeling I get.  Just like you stated that the author was a Jew and in support of Isreal in the attack on Palistine without any previous knowledge of the person.....Jus' sayin'



Kasz216 on 26 August 2010
superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Once again... you are simply not looking at it correctly.

If, radical Christians killed your daughter in an abortion clinic bombing near your work.

How would you feel about an Church being put up right next to said ruins that you have to drive by every day?


The mosque being there will be a sign of america's greatness.

But the greatness that we even protect the rights of people when they use those rights to be giant assholes.

I wouldn't care because I don't have a irrational fear (phobia) of Christians. I would know this was a terrorist action of a single group/person and not Christianity.

Plus, the most IS NOT NEXT DOOR TO GROUND ZERO! Its over 400ft away and only 80ft from an existing mosque.

It's the same difference.   I just put them closeley together because there literally isn't a comprably sized mosque.  Also your ignoring the fact that it's in direct view of 90% of people who view it.  Since it is right next to the WTC subway exit.

Though fine, it's 400 feet away, 15 stories tall... visible from the site, and you see it every day as you wait for the bus or go into the subway.  That's incredibly insensitive.

Heck, say this mosque gets built... and within a week is bombed by a fundamentalist christian group.  Then they build a 15 story church two blocks away and visible.

I've got a feeling you'd be pissed about the church. 

 

Also, it's not called being illogical.  It's called post traumatic stress disorder.

You are forcing a lot of the victims and victims families to relive the incident by putting it there.



Xbbjf9s on 26 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:

-snip-

I understand what you're saying kasz, and I understand that the media is full of hate/fear mongering.

But if I knew someone who did this, I would slap the shit out of them.

They talk like the mosque is a victory symbol. It's not. It's just another day in NYC. They want to put it there because it's prime real-estate. That area is so busy and the people who do business there are of every race and creed, and islam, being the harsh mistress that it is, requires more dedication. You're saying that business men in that area have no right to worship?

It has nothing to do with victory or anything. It's an open space.

Sure there will be people who take offense, but it's a silly thing to take offense over.

The islamic people who are here are seeking refuge. The sunni and shiites and other terrorist groups terrorize everyone, not just americans. Peole leave iraq and iran and come here to get away. The mosque is not a symbol of victory for muslims. It is American.

If a child were to say, daddy why is there a mosque right next to ground zero? The answer should be, "because we are the greatest country in the world, and nothing will ever stop us from protecting our friends and preserving the rights of every man, woman, and child"

Once again... you are simply not looking at it correctly.

If, radical Christians killed your daughter in an abortion clinic bombing near your work.

How would you feel about an Church being put up right next to said ruins that you have to drive by every day?


The mosque being there will be a sign of america's greatness.

But the greatness that we even protect the rights of people when they use those rights to be giant assholes.

The same as the KKK's right to throwing racist protests is a sign of America's greatness.

that's the problem, instead of calling them radical christians call them by name because they are murderers. I don't understand why we fixate so much on religion so much.



Kamal on 26 August 2010
badgenome said:
superchunk said:
badgenome said:
 

I don't think you have to be an "Islamophobe" to think that choosing this location for a mosque shows a serious lack of propriety, and I'm pretty sure that 70% of the population isn't Islamophobic (regardless of what Time magazine says, and it was that article to which Goldberg was responding).

It seems to me that you're suggesting that nobody should even be talking about this because it might encourage radicals to do something.  The tenor of the whole debate on both sides has disappointed me, but people are still responsible for what they do. "I SAW SUM SHIT ON TEH NEWZ AN IT MAED ME ANGREY" isn't an excuse, and if someone punches out a mosque opponent tomorrow, I doubt you'll be so quick to blame it on the intemperence of a whole faction.

The reason given to the mosque issue is based on a series of fallacies. Its not at Ground Zero, nor is it a terrorist center or a trophy for the terrorists, etc. The whole issue is stemmed in Islamaphobia and the underlying ideas by way too many Americans that Muslims are simply terrorist and as such Mosques are breeding grounds for these terrorist. Why else is there another big uproar in Tennessee over another new Mosque proposal? Just because these people are not physically attacking people doesn't mean they are generally afraid of Muslims and Islam due to ignorant beliefs about the religion.

I never said the issue shouldn't be discussed because it might incite radicals, but that it shouldn't be discussed because its entirely ludicrous and a result of its discussion is a natural increase in attacks.

As for your last statement, true I wouldn't call it intemperance of a whole faction; I'd call it another example of inflamed actions out of hate and anger that came from this absurd Mosque conflict.

You find it to be absurd, and it can be argued that there is no rational reason for the mosque not to be there, but there is certainly an emotional reason to locate it elsewhere. The overwhelming majority of Americans oppose it, and since the Cordoba Initiative says its mission is to build bridges, one would think they would see the value of respecting people's sensitivities. After all, the imam involved said during the Mohammed cartoon uproar that he respected freedom of speech but found the cartoons to be appalling and even a "willful fomentation" (and this at a time when death threats were flying like crazy).  So he, of all people, should understand that just because someone has the right to do something, doesn't mean they should.

I think most people's anger and frustration is less about "mulimz r terists" and more about the perception that tolerance is always going to be a one way street


I think after touting all that "Draw a Muhammed day" still happened. I think the mindset of tolerance sometimes blurs emotional responsibility, kinda ironic.

Isn't this Mosque suppose to cost $100 million, seriously why the stretch?



"Life is but a gentle death. Fate is but a sickness that results in extinction and in the midst of all the uncertainty, lies resolve."

Around the Network
Mendicate Bias on 26 August 2010
PizzaFaceGamer said:
superchunk said:

Article is self defeating.

1. Even after the total number decreased it was still over 4 times higher than pre2001, shown some increase in at least reported incidents.

155 incidentas out of 315 million people is not a phobia

2. Of the 3000 people murdered on 9/11, a great number of them were Muslim as well.

"Great number" huh?? The US muslim population is 2%.  Which means apporximately 60 muslims were killed, not including the 19 muslims that perpetrated the attack, that not a GREAT NUMBER of anything

3. The 'controversial' Mosque is closer to an existing Mosque than Ground Zero and you can't even see it from Ground Zero.

The mosque location IS part of the 9-11 attacks as the landing gear from one of the planes went through the roof. 

4. This is raised in US because we are the US and must hold ourselves to higher levels and standards than any other nation, especially those Muslim nations you all like to use for comparison so much.

No moral equivelance

5. No one says America is a land of intolerance, just that it seems the right-wing is becoming more and more radical, which is scary as that path leads to the same extreamism we denounce daily.

So the right-wing is more dangerous than radical islam....huh???

6. Author's name is 'Goldberg' (Jewish).... ok j/k on that one, just thought it was funny, ya know whole Isreali/Jewish issue with Palestinian/Arab/Muslim etc... ok joke has past.

Stereotyping, a great way to lose all credibility



2) There were over 200 muslims killed in the 9/11 attack, don't make up numbers

4) So since 3rd world countries with dictatorships have unethical laws we should too, glad your not a politician.

5) Considering when in power they have the largest nuclear arsenal known to man and whilst in power proceeded to lead to the death of nearly one million innocent civilians in the middle east, yes very much so

Also your muslim and jewish population counts are completely wrong. There is no accurate statistic for muslim and jewish populations in the United States and depending on what source you look at there could be significant variance. If I take the most conservative statistics I could say there are 4-5 million muslims in the US and 7-7.5 million Jews in the US. 

Also muslims are discriminated against more than any other religion in the US

http://people-press.org/report/542/muslims-widely-seen-as-facing-discrimination

However way you slice it this entire mosque fiasco is stupid considering that it's not even a mosque but a youth center open to anyone. You can't make them move unless you change the constitution and if you start changing the constitution over such petty things then this country is going to be headed towards a dark future.



                                           

                      The definitive evidence that video games turn people into mass murderers

Kamal on 26 August 2010
FootballFan said:
Kamal said:
FootballFan said:
Scoobes said:
PizzaFaceGamer said:

@theprof - i'm surprised americans are so tolerant of muslims especially since they continue to murder americans like muslim terrorist Nidal Hasan who murdered 12 soldiers in the name of allah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan

Would you please stop associating the actions of a few as being the actions of an entire religion.

I don't think for one second that the US is Islamophobic (although some individuals obviously are), but you constantly sound like it.

A phobia is an irrational fear. A small percentage of spiders are harmful that leads to people having the fear. A small amount of Muslims are terrorists. Sure it is an irrational fear but considering the same principles of any other fear, it is bound to occur when terrorists (specifically Islamic) seem to be in a greater abundance than ever.

Here is an example, there was recently an explosion near where I live. The person thought it was a terrorists attacking, it is just an instilled reaction from what has happened to the West from a minority of brainwashed (insert word here) people from the east killing or fighting in the name of allah to kill/harm the infedels.


I think that media feeding you that national secruity is always at risk doesn't help.

National security is always crucial and one "health and safety" thing that many would argue that is worth keeping. It is all a question of the government believing there isn't a chance of something happening. In general in this country we assume the worst. Lawyers, circle us like wolves.  I do agree it is taken to far though, did you know we still have troops based in Germany incase we are subjected to an attack? Now that, is bizzare.

That all changes when the world cup starts ;P



"Life is but a gentle death. Fate is but a sickness that results in extinction and in the midst of all the uncertainty, lies resolve."

superchunk on 26 August 2010
FootballFan said:
superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Once again... you are simply not looking at it correctly.

If, radical Christians killed your daughter in an abortion clinic bombing near your work.

How would you feel about an Church being put up right next to said ruins that you have to drive by every day?


The mosque being there will be a sign of america's greatness.

But the greatness that we even protect the rights of people when they use those rights to be giant assholes.

I wouldn't care because I don't have a irrational fear (phobia) of Christians. I would know this was a terrorist action of a single group/person and not Christianity.

Plus, the most IS NOT NEXT DOOR TO GROUND ZERO! Its over 400ft away and only 80ft from an existing mosque.

Surely your last statement begs the question of the need to put this mosque here. 80ft from an existing mosque seems slightly pointless and makes me think that the person who is funding the building of the religous structure could have alternative intentions. Perhaps not.....but thats the immediate feeling I get.  Just like you stated that the author was a Jew and in support of Isreal in the attack on Palistine without any previous knowledge of the person.....Jus' sayin'

Becaue the new one isn't really for the purposes of a Mosque. that is only one rather small part of the entire 15 story center.

As for my last remark on Jewish author, read it again, I was clearly joking. I can't believe so many people fail to read the whole sentance.



theprof00 on 26 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:

-snip-

I understand what you're saying kasz, and I understand that the media is full of hate/fear mongering.

But if I knew someone who did this, I would slap the shit out of them.

They talk like the mosque is a victory symbol. It's not. It's just another day in NYC. They want to put it there because it's prime real-estate. That area is so busy and the people who do business there are of every race and creed, and islam, being the harsh mistress that it is, requires more dedication. You're saying that business men in that area have no right to worship?

It has nothing to do with victory or anything. It's an open space.

Sure there will be people who take offense, but it's a silly thing to take offense over.

The islamic people who are here are seeking refuge. The sunni and shiites and other terrorist groups terrorize everyone, not just americans. Peole leave iraq and iran and come here to get away. The mosque is not a symbol of victory for muslims. It is American.

If a child were to say, daddy why is there a mosque right next to ground zero? The answer should be, "because we are the greatest country in the world, and nothing will ever stop us from protecting our friends and preserving the rights of every man, woman, and child"

Once again... you are simply not looking at it correctly.

If, radical Christians killed your daughter in an abortion clinic bombing near your work.

How would you feel about an Church being put up right next to said ruins that you have to drive by every day?


The mosque being there will be a sign of america's greatness.

But the greatness that we even protect the rights of people when they use those rights to be giant assholes.

The same as the KKK's right to throwing racist protests is a sign of America's greatness.

I wouldn't do anything about it. I, my family, and my daughter are tragic victims of fate. I wouldn't dare to take revenge by terrorizing the innocent. And I don't deign to think that my actions have any impact on the security of my loved ones or of humanity itself.



FootballFan on 26 August 2010
Kamal said:
FootballFan said:
Kamal said:
FootballFan said:
Scoobes said:
PizzaFaceGamer said:

@theprof - i'm surprised americans are so tolerant of muslims especially since they continue to murder americans like muslim terrorist Nidal Hasan who murdered 12 soldiers in the name of allah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan

Would you please stop associating the actions of a few as being the actions of an entire religion.

I don't think for one second that the US is Islamophobic (although some individuals obviously are), but you constantly sound like it.

A phobia is an irrational fear. A small percentage of spiders are harmful that leads to people having the fear. A small amount of Muslims are terrorists. Sure it is an irrational fear but considering the same principles of any other fear, it is bound to occur when terrorists (specifically Islamic) seem to be in a greater abundance than ever.

Here is an example, there was recently an explosion near where I live. The person thought it was a terrorists attacking, it is just an instilled reaction from what has happened to the West from a minority of brainwashed (insert word here) people from the east killing or fighting in the name of allah to kill/harm the infedels.


I think that media feeding you that national secruity is always at risk doesn't help.

National security is always crucial and one "health and safety" thing that many would argue that is worth keeping. It is all a question of the government believing there isn't a chance of something happening. In general in this country we assume the worst. Lawyers, circle us like wolves.  I do agree it is taken to far though, did you know we still have troops based in Germany incase we are subjected to an attack? Now that, is bizzare.

That all changes when the world cup starts ;P

Next time round I will definitely be assuming the worst to avoid further disappointment.