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Forums - General - The MYTH of American Islamophobia

superchunk on 26 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:
superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:
superchunk said:

Article is self defeating.

1. Even after the total number decreased it was still over 4 times higher than pre2001, shown some increase in at least reported incidents.

2. Of the 3000 people murdered on 9/11, a great number of them were Muslim as well.

3. The 'controversial' Mosque is closer to an existing Mosque than Ground Zero and you can't even see it from Ground Zero.

4. This is raised in US because we are the US and must hold ourselves to higher levels and standards than any other nation, especially those Muslim nations you all like to use for comparison so much.

5. No one says America is a land of intolerance, just that it seems the right-wing is becoming more and more radical, which is scary as that path leads to the same extreamism we denounce daily.

6. Author's name is 'Goldberg' (Jewish).... ok j/k on that one, just thought it was funny, ya know whole Isreali/Jewish issue with Palestinian/Arab/Muslim etc... ok joke has past.

3)  The existing community centre isn't... 15 stories tall.

So its not the relative proximity but the height? Just build a bigger memorial... oh wait one hasn't been built yet... after 9 years...

Yes?  The real problem isn't really the height or the location.  It's the visibility.

I mean, it'd be like building a giant church within visibility of a burned down mosque that people who lost people in the fire had to walk by every day to get to their replacement mosque.

You have the legal right to do it, but you'd be a huge douchebag for doing it.

Although you know... not as bad, since one mosque isn't really equivlenet since way more people make the commute.

It's common senese...

You can't see the site from Ground Zero, even at 15 stories tall... its just stupid.

You don't think so?  Seriously, google map it.  You totally will.  If you zoom down enough you can see all the one building between it.

Also note where the WTC subway exit is.

 

You are just... wrong.  You can see the buildings on that block from ground zero.


You'd have to be standing at the top corner of the Ground Zero site that is along the same street and be able to see over 400 feet down the road, passed a lot more than one building, to potentially see the face of the building in question. I think you have your facts messed up.



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theprof00 on 26 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:

I'm guessing said protest has far less support.

... There are protests and rallies and the Tea Party is there. They've also defaced the other mosque that is there, etc etc.

It doesn't matter if there is less support. They are protesting an American right, while at the same time, the tea party espouses constitutional integrity. 

My point is.  You are trying to discredit and actual protest that has a point, by bringing up one who doesn't.

 

It would be the equivlent of say, people protesting that veal farms are cruel because they lock in a calf to where it can never move for it's entire life....

and saying "Yeah, well PETA also says nobody should have pets and that animals should be protected under the exact same laws humans are".


I'm not discrediting the protest of the moque, I'm discrediting the OPs idea that the NYC mosque is an isolated situation lending media coverage to an otherwise benign movement.

The NYC mosque is not the epicenter of anti-islamic sentiment. It is happening all over the US. Just recently, a church in Florida wanted to host what they called "international burn-a-quran day". 



thismeintiel on 26 August 2010
theprof00 said:
PizzaFaceGamer said:

superchunk STOP SPREADING FALSE information

The muslim population in America is HIGHER than the jewish population yet jewish hate crimes outnumber muslims hate crimes 6-1

. The population of American adherents of Judaism was estimated to be approximately 5,128,000 (1.7%)[3] of the total population in 2007 (301,621,000

Muslims  make up 2% of the population and ONLY 155 hate crimes out of 315 million people happened last year.

THAT IS NOT A PHOBIA

 Stop your liberal lies

 

The difference is that anti-semitic attitude is constant whereas anti-islamic attitude is increasing.

Actually, I think the article said the exact opposite.  There was a peak right after 9/11, and then it dropped to ~ 100 the years following.  And sorry, but to say that its just so horrible to have 155 hate crimes out of 6.3 mil Muslims living in the US is quite idiotic.  I mean damn, that's ONLY 0.0025 % of them that were targeted.  And as the article said, most of that was non-violent vandalism and/or verbal abuse.  I would love to see the percentages of hate crimes commited against whites and blacks, as I bet they are higher.



 

PizzaFaceGamer on 26 August 2010
theprof00 said:
PizzaFaceGamer said:

superchunk STOP SPREADING FALSE information

The muslim population in America is HIGHER than the jewish population yet jewish hate crimes outnumber muslims hate crimes 6-1

. The population of American adherents of Judaism was estimated to be approximately 5,128,000 (1.7%)[3] of the total population in 2007 (301,621,000

Muslims  make up 2% of the population and ONLY 155 hate crimes out of 315 million people happened last year.

THAT IS NOT A PHOBIA

 Stop your liberal lies

 

The difference is that anti-semitic attitude is constant whereas anti-islamic attitude is increasing.

theprof00 - ummm you fail reading comprehension 101

The article says hate crimes against muslims have DECREASED since their 2001 record high.  Attacks are not increasing at all, they are holding steady at around 150 per year, which is miniscule



superchunk on 26 August 2010
badgenome said:
superchunk said:


...and there are attacks on other religions, races, etc every day that don't make the news, so what. Right now its all out in the open on Muslims due to the stupid outcry for the Mosque in NYC, as well as other places in the nation. If this were about Synagogues then Jewish attacks would be being highlighted as well and I'd come into that thread and agree that its wrong on all accounts, not discuss the attacks on blacks, gays, etc.

You're assuming that this has to do with the mosque, when there is roughly one anti-Muslim hate crime every three days and nothing is really said about it in the national media. So a cab driver gets slashed (horrible incident) and a guy urinates in a mosque and calls the people terrorists, and the media goes wild over it because, hey, we were just talking about a mosque!

But two drops don't make a rainstorm, and this is very typical of how the media covers things. Like when there's a high profile kidnapping, you'll often see several such stories grabbing headlines for a while and it seems like there's been a rash of such incidents.Bbut in reality there wasn't any uptick in kidnappings, only a change in how much media attention they're receiving.

That's my point. Its news because of related news in NY, but that doesn't mean that news like the Mosque issue don't have an effect on actions by radicals as that behaviour is indirectly encouraged. Plus, the simple fact that the mosque issue is even an issue demonstrates a level of Islamaphobia accross the US.



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superchunk on 26 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
superchunk said:
PizzaFaceGamer said:
superchunk said:

Article is self defeating.

1. Even after the total number decreased it was still over 4 times higher than pre2001, shown some increase in at least reported incidents.

155 incidentas out of 315 million people is not a phobia

2. Of the 3000 people murdered on 9/11, a great number of them were Muslim as well.

"Great number" huh?? The US muslim population is 2%.  Which means apporximately 60 muslims were killed, not including the 19 muslims that perpetrated the attack, that not a GREAT NUMBER of anything

3. The 'controversial' Mosque is closer to an existing Mosque than Ground Zero and you can't even see it from Ground Zero.

The mosque location IS part of the 9-11 attacks as the landing gear from one of the planes went through the roof. 

4. This is raised in US because we are the US and must hold ourselves to higher levels and standards than any other nation, especially those Muslim nations you all like to use for comparison so much.

No moral equivelance

5. No one says America is a land of intolerance, just that it seems the right-wing is becoming more and more radical, which is scary as that path leads to the same extreamism we denounce daily.

So the right-wing is more dangerous than radical islam....huh???

6. Author's name is 'Goldberg' (Jewish).... ok j/k on that one, just thought it was funny, ya know whole Isreali/Jewish issue with Palestinian/Arab/Muslim etc... ok joke has past.

Stereotyping, a great way to lose all credibility



1. ok, the attacks are extreme actions based on the phobia, not the only way to see that it exists. The absurd discussion about the Mosque by a much larger % of US population is a direct example of the phobia at a national level.

2. Muslims killed on 9/11 is more of a demonstration that the terrorist who did the act did so against everyone regardless of religion. Another reason the discusson about the Mosque is pointless.

3. omg that is 100% stupid. I can't even reply in serious terms.

4. Don't understand what you mean.

5. No, I said the right-wing is becoming radical as time goes on and it only has one possible end result; which is like 'radical Islam'.

6. Did you not see I said I was joking... jesus you need to pull your stick out of your ass.


I don't think anyone saw you were joking. 

I mean, 6 isn't really any different from your usual stance and attitude in such regards.

It clearlys says "ok j/k on that one, just thought it was funny, ya know whole Isreali/Jewish issue with Palestinian/Arab/Muslim etc... ok joke has past." wtf?!

Also, when have I ever been anti-Jewish? I am anti-Israel, but that is not the same thing as one is a State and the other is a religious group of people, a good number of which agree with me in regards to Israel.



Kasz216 on 26 August 2010
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:

I'm guessing said protest has far less support.

... There are protests and rallies and the Tea Party is there. They've also defaced the other mosque that is there, etc etc.

It doesn't matter if there is less support. They are protesting an American right, while at the same time, the tea party espouses constitutional integrity. 

My point is.  You are trying to discredit and actual protest that has a point, by bringing up one who doesn't.

 

It would be the equivlent of say, people protesting that veal farms are cruel because they lock in a calf to where it can never move for it's entire life....

and saying "Yeah, well PETA also says nobody should have pets and that animals should be protected under the exact same laws humans are".


I'm not discrediting the protest of the moque, I'm discrediting the OPs idea that the NYC mosque is an isolated situation lending media coverage to an otherwise benign movement.

The NYC mosque is not the epicenter of anti-islamic sentiment. It is happening all over the US. Just recently, a church in Florida wanted to host what they called "international burn-a-quran day". 

You don't think this stuff happens all the time?  Including before 9/11?

"international burn-a-quran day"?   That's your number 3?

You don't think that doesn't happen to Christians and/or Jewisih people either?  Seems pretty tame compaired to something Richard Dawkins might do just to piss off all 3 of the religions.

Heck...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CshCI90Nfqc

Burning both is prevelent on freakin youtube.



theprof00 on 26 August 2010
thismeintiel said:

Actually, I think the article said the exact opposite.  There was a peak right after 9/11, and then it dropped to ~ 100 the years following.  And sorry, but to say that its just so horrible to have 155 hate crimes out of 6.3 mil Muslims living in the US is quite idiotic.  I mean damn, that's ONLY 0.0025 % of them that were targeted.  And as the article said, most of that was non-violent vandalism and/or verbal abuse.  I would love to see the percentages of hate crimes commited against whites and blacks, as I bet they are higher.

It's been increasing over the last week.

I understand that it's due to media coverage, but this is how things start. There's a couple clashes. The judges will rule for muslims, and then the real backlash will happen.

It's like when integration of blacks happened in the school systems. racial violence was going down and then for the next 20 years they increased.

This is just the start.



theprof00 on 26 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:

I'm guessing said protest has far less support.

... There are protests and rallies and the Tea Party is there. They've also defaced the other mosque that is there, etc etc.

It doesn't matter if there is less support. They are protesting an American right, while at the same time, the tea party espouses constitutional integrity. 

My point is.  You are trying to discredit and actual protest that has a point, by bringing up one who doesn't.

 

It would be the equivlent of say, people protesting that veal farms are cruel because they lock in a calf to where it can never move for it's entire life....

and saying "Yeah, well PETA also says nobody should have pets and that animals should be protected under the exact same laws humans are".


I'm not discrediting the protest of the moque, I'm discrediting the OPs idea that the NYC mosque is an isolated situation lending media coverage to an otherwise benign movement.

The NYC mosque is not the epicenter of anti-islamic sentiment. It is happening all over the US. Just recently, a church in Florida wanted to host what they called "international burn-a-quran day". 

You don't think this stuff happens all the time?  Including before 9/11?

"international burn-a-quran day"?   That's your number 3?

You don't think that doesn't happen to Christians and/or Jewisih people either?  Seems pretty tame compaired to something Richard Dawkins might do just to piss off all 3 of the religions.

Oh, I didn't know we were arguing that they should grow thicker skin.

I thought we were arguing over an american civil liberty granted by the constitution.



badgenome on 26 August 2010
superchunk said:
badgenome said:
superchunk said:


...and there are attacks on other religions, races, etc every day that don't make the news, so what. Right now its all out in the open on Muslims due to the stupid outcry for the Mosque in NYC, as well as other places in the nation. If this were about Synagogues then Jewish attacks would be being highlighted as well and I'd come into that thread and agree that its wrong on all accounts, not discuss the attacks on blacks, gays, etc.

You're assuming that this has to do with the mosque, when there is roughly one anti-Muslim hate crime every three days and nothing is really said about it in the national media. So a cab driver gets slashed (horrible incident) and a guy urinates in a mosque and calls the people terrorists, and the media goes wild over it because, hey, we were just talking about a mosque!

But two drops don't make a rainstorm, and this is very typical of how the media covers things. Like when there's a high profile kidnapping, you'll often see several such stories grabbing headlines for a while and it seems like there's been a rash of such incidents.Bbut in reality there wasn't any uptick in kidnappings, only a change in how much media attention they're receiving.

That's my point. Its news because of related news in NY, but that doesn't mean that news like the Mosque issue don't have an effect on actions by radicals as that behaviour is indirectly encouraged. Plus, the simple fact that the mosque issue is even an issue demonstrates a level of Islamaphobia accross the US.

I don't think you have to be an "Islamophobe" to think that choosing this location for a mosque shows a serious lack of propriety, and I'm pretty sure that 70% of the population isn't Islamophobic (regardless of what Time magazine says, and it was that article to which Goldberg was responding).

It seems to me that you're suggesting that nobody should even be talking about this because it might encourage radicals to do something.  The tenor of the whole debate on both sides has disappointed me, but people are still responsible for what they do. "I SAW SUM SHIT ON TEH NEWZ AN IT MAED ME ANGREY" isn't an excuse, and if someone punches out a mosque opponent tomorrow, I doubt you'll be so quick to blame it on the intemperence of a whole faction.