Metallicube said:
Resident_Hazard said:
Mr Khan said:
Quality is about a game delivering value, which for these people largely revolves around being fun and functional. Wii Wankery has always had that in spades, the games have been polished to a fine point, they work, and are fun. Many third party games can't say the same. And you're running apples to oranges. Compared to its peers, Sports, Sports Resort, and the almight Fit, Wii Music did horribly. Compare Monster Hunter Tri to its peers however, especially in Western performance, and you see a success, but a success existing in a much more restricted market. Mario Party games declined in quality with time, and the sales went with them, until Nintendo stopped pumping them out and focused on a 1-per-console attitude, with 8 and DS, and they did great, and now the franchise is in semi-retirement.
Just Dance is likely to outsell both Metroid games on the platform combined, and certainly more than Wii Music (highly comparable). Where does that figure in?
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Wow, I almost forgot people could be polite talking to me. Thanks for that.
I think we're both a little vague on what we term as quality. You can say, "value," but then how do you define value? I would say that quality and value come in the forms of highly polished controls, gameplay, graphics, and if present--storyline. Value comes from a variety of polished (as in functional) gameplay ideas, graphics that continue to impress throughout the game, and a level of immersion. That, and the game makes me want to come back to it. These can vary wildly for most people, of course.
However, I feel that pretty much every Wii Whatever title lacks a lot of quality, and they all have limited value. Wii Sports, for instance, has five mini-games without any real depth. Two of the games work great (bowling and tennis), one is okay (boxing) and the other two are just utterly broken (golf and baseball). Granted, Wii Sports isn't so much a game as it is a tech demo to somewhat show off the Wii. Plus, it's a pack-in everywhere but Japan.
Wii Sports Resort is better, but still shallow, and some of the games are still broken or just plain not fun. Graphically, neither of these games are pushing the abilities of the Wii--and this sent a bad message on the system. Too many third party companies just half-assed their games because "it worked" with Wii Sports/Music/Fit/Sports Resort.
There were 3rd party developers that really tried to give us some good stuff. And nobody cared. Nintendo fans complain that MadWorld was too short and they dismiss it outright. Pikmin is shorter, but the fans love that one. Both of those games feature a variety of gameplay, a lot of polish, and tons of fun.
Just Dance? That's the other variable for the Wii--the casual crowd. Which I personally believe has less of effect on game sales than Nintendo fans, with rare exception.
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The difference there is that Wii Sports/Resort are actually GOOD. They are quality games, whether or not you agree, otherwise they wouldn't be among the top selling games of all time. People obviously view these games as quality. Most of the 3rd party efforts on the other hand are not quality, which again is shown by the sales, or lack of them.
Wii Sports is actually a complex game in many ways. For instance, the way you hit the ball in tennis makes a huge difference (you can spike, give it spin, backhanded, etc). It is a fast paced game and the slightest move can change the whole outcome of the game. Same with bowling, you can add spin, bowl fast or slowly, move left or right, etc.
I noticed many of the self proclaimed hardcore gamers seem to only view complexity and quality these days in terms of how "epic" a game is, in terms of cinematics, graphics, etc. They seem to believe that the more like a film a game is, the more "hardcore" it is. I'd actually contend that Wii Sports is more "hardcore" than these games that are trying to be movies, because it is more fast paced, raw gameplay, that doesn't hang on the coattails of cinematics to provide entertainment, not to mention it is far less linear.
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I'll give you that Wii Sports Resort is fun, but not all of it. Some of the mini-games are pure crap. Bicycling, for instance, is one of the worst things I've seen crapped half-assedly from Nintendo.
And never, ever, ever assume that high sales equate quality. After all, lots of stuff is popular and at the same time, a massive load of crap. Look at Vanilla Ice, Wii Play, or pretty much any major religious text. The movie 2012 was popular, too. Macarana, anyone? I think I made my point on that one. Meanwhile, Red Steel 2 and No More Heroes 2 are considered very high quality titles--and they were ignored en masse by casual gamers and Nintendo fans alike. You'd think that Nintendo fans would be all about supporting unique exclusive titles to their system in order to spark up new franchises. I guess if it isn't Mario, Zelda, or Pokemon, there's no reason to give a shit.
And Wii Sports has largely sold a lot simply because it's packaged with the system pretty much everywhere in the world. So is Sports Resort now, for that matter.
Also, for the record, I generally loathe cinematics (and its one of my primary concerns pertaining to the new Metroid game) and think that video games should tell the story through something novel like, you know, the gameplay. Bioshock, Bioshock 2, Transformers: War for Cybertron, Metroid Prime 1, Metroid Prime 2, and Fable II all do story-telling without breaking away from the game or gameplay. When we do actually receive some kind of cinematic in those titles, it's brief and serves a purpose--and then we're right back in the game again. Take a game like Tekken 6, and the cinematic story-telling sequences in the adventure mode are so goddamn long and annoying, that I stopped caring when I realized the game had been on for 20 minutes and I hadn't been in a single fight yet. That's fucked up. Especially for a fighting game! There's a reason interactive movies died a fast, hard death.
That said, I am very much a hardcore gamer, and I believe that there is rather a lot of stuff on which a game can be measured. Usually, it shouldn't be measured by what it lacks, but by how well it does what it does. Like I said, half of the original Wii Sports is damn near unplayable. And I wouldn't consider it more hardcore because it's "pure gameplay." So is frisbee golf. There are a lot of hardcore games that are light on story, but heavy on gameplay. Look at anything from Treasure. Sure, they all have grotesque over-done stories, but nobody ever cares about them. We play Treasure titles for the pure, drool-inducing, hardcore gameplay. The same goes for a game like N , which is likely unappealling to any casual types, but is awash in vibrant gameplay.
What makes the Wii-whatever titles "casual" rather than hardcore is the pick-up-and-play status, the incredible simplicity in the gameplay, and the (general) ease of use. Sure, you can put spin on the bowling ball, but what of it? I have Bowling on the Atari2600 and you can put spin on the ball in there, too--it's just a little technologically limited--but it's there. But then, that was the focus of the Wii, wasn't it. Simplified control so as to be inviting to new people. It's a shame that the amount of depth available with the Wiimote and nunchuck went largely unused.
Are epic stories hallmarks of hardcore games? Sometimes.
Is detailed, complex gameplay a hallmark of a hardcore game? Typically. (Look at pretty much any shmup.)
Is "pure gameplay" a hallmark of a hardcore title? No.
Seriously, Carnival Games is a huge seller on the Wii, and it is neither a hardcore title, nor a quality release, nor does it have depth in pretty much any definition of the word.
Seriously, though, I am very much a hardcore gamer, and I want nothing to do with cinematics. Cinematics are not gameplay, and it doesn't count to make me press "A" halfway through the cinematic to dodge a bullet. That is still not gameplay. For that matter, neither is waggling around the Wii Remote in desperation to have a functional hit on a golf ball. It doesn't count if it's just broken as all hell.
