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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Kotaku asks developers, "Will Kinect really not work while you're sitting?"

JaggedSac on 22 June 2010

As Squilliam said, Kinect is mainly a piece of software.  Software that will be upgraded regularly no doubt.  Sitting on a couch is a difficult problem solve as the furniture and person become mixed together in the depth map.  They will probably have to use a completely different solution than a skeletal system.  Which is another big thing with Kinect, MS could add completely unthought of functionality in an update.  Which is an interesting concept, as input devices are usually set in stone in their functionality once the hardware is complete.



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steverhcp02 on 22 June 2010
JaggedSac said:

As Squilliam said, Kinect is mainly a piece of software.  Software that will be upgraded regularly no doubt.  Sitting on a couch is a difficult problem solve as the furniture and person become mixed together in the depth map.  They will probably have to use a completely different solution than a skeletal system.  Which is another big thing with Kinect, MS could add completely unthought of functionality in an update.  Which is an interesting concept, as input devices are usually set in stone in their functionality once the hardware is complete.


I think a lot of people's main issue here is why hasnt it been done? As another poster alluded, it would make sense to have demo'ed Alice in Wonderland with the user on the couch, eating popcorn....or sitting with his family. The fact NOTHING was shown and reps have made it official its not implemented makes a lot of us scratch our head.

Id like to believe theres no way in hell MSFT would consider releasing this product if it werent an easy fix, but then the fact it hasnt been fixed yet is conflicting with the aforementioned thought.

Lots of question marks, which is never good for a new unfamiliar tech. Ever. Because until people see it in motion working, this crap will be flooding the interwebs, mindshare is  ahuge factor, especially this gen, not to mention word of mouth.

MSFT has some work to do before November, i really hope they can do it because i desperately want natal for my pc down the line.




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Squilliam on 23 June 2010
Spankey said:
Squilliam said:

Oh I assume they will get everything nice and sorted eventually. Its just that its incredibly complicated software, which is why both Sony and Nintendo stayed away from this kind of implementation and why Microsoft is the only one to dare to try. So long as its good enough at launch and is continually updated I see no problems with the interface. Its a software issue and software can be patched.

 


quite true - but having to patch something out of the box and keep patching it thereafter...update overload?

on a PC ok no problem, I can understand...but a console? hopefully MS won't be as bad as Sony with their (until recently) 1 000 000 patches per year

sure the interface software (and hardware) is complicated, but is Joe Console Public ready to deal with it when it might not work 100% as soon as it's plugged in?

it's going to be interesting to find ot if MS can nail it properly before initial distribution

Im pretty sure any applicable updates will come with the game discs so at worst case even the ones who don't have internet access will have their system patched and even then it won't be much more than 2-4 patches per year. Its not a significant issue really.

It'll almost certainly work out of the box. From what I see right now they'll just pare back any of the features which don't quite make the cut for launch to ensure that the experience from the start works perfectly on everything they offer and from there they will expand on it.



Tease.

Squilliam on 23 June 2010
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Squilliam said:

There is a significant quantity of development, its a software vs difficult hardware issue, but like the PS3's processor theres a lot of potential there if they can get the software running fast enough and theres a lot of room for improvement. Its very likely that Kinect in two years if it stays on the market will be considerably different to the Kinect of today in terms of processing power required, accuracy, and the experience of developers making use of the interface.

[...]


Yes, I realized reading another thread that using more efficiently the available computing power, and in future consoles having more power available, some Kinect capabilities can be expanded (the most evident improvement with future consoles' power could be the number of active players trackable at the same time). This is a good thing, but it doesn't deny that advertising a feature that actually can't be offered from the start, or uses that for its very nature it's not good at, can damage Kinect's reputation, MS must instead push strong whichever use Kinect will be the best at since its release, this way, if the games are good enough, it could achieve a success comparable with Balance Board, and what's best, due to its different features, in a new market of its own.

What features were actually promised which are now absent from the current design brief?



Tease.

Homeroids on 23 June 2010

 

@Squilliam

Scanning a skateboard and then using it virtually.

No absolute confirmation that wrist movements are accurately tracked.

No absolute confirmation that you can use it fully whilst sitting down.

These things were clearly shown in the Promo from last year. They were not really shown at E3 this year on stage. Maybe they were?

Now before I get a big reaction - I believe that these things may be sorted out by release.



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Cueil on 23 June 2010
dahuman said:
AlkamistStar said:
makingmusic476 said:
AlkamistStar said:

This has since been debunked, time for an update to that OP.


You tell me I should change my OP, yet you give me no information as to why I should do so or to what I should change it to.  How kind.  :P

I have read the comments that debunk the idea that Kinect only functions properly while you stand, and every response has thus far has minced words.  Greenberg mentioned "depending on the game or experience."  IGN specifically said that "they don't want you to stand while watching a movie," which has no bearing on gaming functionality.  Etc. etc.  There has yet to be a simple, "Kinect works fine while you're sitting!" response, no matter how many times the question's been asked.

More importantly, none of these comments change what developers have told Kotaku concerning Kinect.  Microsoft HAS advised developers to not make games that would involve the players sitting down.  The Forza demo HAS been "optimized for standing."  The developers working on the dashboard interface DID say that "sitting is something [they]'re still calibrating for."

As it stands now, if you're going to be using Kinect, chances are you're gonna be standing.

On an unrelated note, I will say that the thread over on neogaf about this topic has been quite fun to read.

Ok...that was uncalled for. Since your so up to date with your gaming news, i thought you would've already figured it out.

I don't see why Microsoft would encourage players to sit down to showcase their games at E3 when the point is to get them to be active, and engage themselves with Kinect. Forza...same thing, in real life i walk around a car to look at it, i don't sit down and magically float around the sides to check out the fenders, and tires. To go as far as saying Kinect will ONLY support games that you stand while playing is ridiculous, especially since that's not confirmed, it's more of a rumor as it stands (see what i did there). In any case some games will require you to stand because "depending on the game or experience" it's warranted. I wouldn't play Wii Fit sitting down, so why would i for Fitness Evolved?

You drive standing?

if you're in a standing forklift you are!



 
Get your Portable ID!

Squilliam on 23 June 2010
Homeroids said:

 

@Squilliam

1. Scanning a skateboard and then using it virtually.

2. No absolute confirmation that wrist movements are accurately tracked.

3. No absolute confirmation that you can use it fully whilst sitting down.

4. These things were clearly shown in the Promo from last year. They were not really shown at E3 this year on stage. Maybe they were?

Now before I get a big reaction - I believe that these things may be sorted out by release.

Oh the E3 video? Anyway I think it was quite obvious that the video itself was fiction. They even said as much at the conferrence. They've covered their asses on those.



Tease.

Alby_da_Wolf on 23 June 2010
Squilliam said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Squilliam said:

There is a significant quantity of development, its a software vs difficult hardware issue, but like the PS3's processor theres a lot of potential there if they can get the software running fast enough and theres a lot of room for improvement. Its very likely that Kinect in two years if it stays on the market will be considerably different to the Kinect of today in terms of processing power required, accuracy, and the experience of developers making use of the interface.

[...]


Yes, I realized reading another thread that using more efficiently the available computing power, and in future consoles having more power available, some Kinect capabilities can be expanded (the most evident improvement with future consoles' power could be the number of active players trackable at the same time). This is a good thing, but it doesn't deny that advertising a feature that actually can't be offered from the start, or uses that for its very nature it's not good at, can damage Kinect's reputation, MS must instead push strong whichever use Kinect will be the best at since its release, this way, if the games are good enough, it could achieve a success comparable with Balance Board, and what's best, due to its different features, in a new market of its own.

What features were actually promised which are now absent from the current design brief?

How about that video where the mom drives sitting and the dad changes her car's wheels crouching?

Or using it as a remote control, remote controls' purpose is to control devices without having to get up.



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ArnoldRimmer on 23 June 2010
JaggedSac said:

As Squilliam said, Kinect is mainly a piece of software.  Software that will be upgraded regularly no doubt.  Sitting on a couch is a difficult problem solve as the furniture and person become mixed together in the depth map.  They will probably have to use a completely different solution than a skeletal system.  Which is another big thing with Kinect, MS could add completely unthought of functionality in an update.  Which is an interesting concept, as input devices are usually set in stone in their functionality once the hardware is complete.

But Microsoft does not have unlimited freedom in changing the Kinect libraries because it has to stay compatible with previous releases. For example, it was said that the Kinect libraries requires 10% of the Xbox 360's total processing power. Developers usually try do get the maximum out of a console, so they will try to optimize it to using the remaining 90%. Now let's imagine Microsoft releases an improved Kinect library. It uses an improved algorithm for scanning the player's skeletal system that also works with sitting people, but this improved algorithm also has a disadvantage: Instead of 10%, it now uses 13% of the 360's total processing power. 3% more is not really that much, but still you could not simply update the Kinect libraries because the games released so far were optimized to use 90% of the processing power, not 87%.



Spankey on 23 June 2010
Cueil said:
dahuman said:
AlkamistStar said:

Ok...that was uncalled for. Since your so up to date with your gaming news, i thought you would've already figured it out.

I don't see why Microsoft would encourage players to sit down to showcase their games at E3 when the point is to get them to be active, and engage themselves with Kinect. Forza...same thing, in real life i walk around a car to look at it, i don't sit down and magically float around the sides to check out the fenders, and tires. To go as far as saying Kinect will ONLY support games that you stand while playing is ridiculous, especially since that's not confirmed, it's more of a rumor as it stands (see what i did there). In any case some games will require you to stand because "depending on the game or experience" it's warranted. I wouldn't play Wii Fit sitting down, so why would i for Fitness Evolved?

You drive standing?

if you're in a standing forklift you are!

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