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Forums - Gaming - Developer says Used Games Sales worse then Piracy

Soonerman said:
vlad321 said:
Do people in this thread realize that video games are not even close to being the same as a car or other such physical goods?

How are they not the same thing? They are my property. I bought my games with my money to use for my pleasure and I will sell them when when that pleasure is gone just like I do with a car, house, or any piece of property.

Why don't you read the EULA? 



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Most of my games i buy are brand new, sometimes i wait for them to go on sale before picking them up if i dont think its going to be worth a 60 price tag.  If i do buy used games i get them from a friend or off of ebay i do not and will not buy used games from gamestop.  Buying a game from me for 15 bucks and then selling it for 55 only 5 less then retail is a bunch of crap.  I have hated that business model for years and thats why i dont do much business with them and boy do the employees there try to push the used game sales.  Come to think of it every Ps3 game i own is a brand new copy havent bought a single used game i have bought used Ps2 and 360 titles though lol.



Tanstalas said:
Soonerman said:
vlad321 said:
Do people in this thread realize that video games are not even close to being the same as a car or other such physical goods?

How are they not the same thing? They are my property. I bought my games with my money to use for my pleasure and I will sell them when when that pleasure is gone just like I do with a car, house, or any piece of property.

Why don't you read the EULA? 

You obviously don't know jack about EULAs. Here's what gives me the ownership and power to sell an "intellectual property"

First, the First-Sale Doctrine - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_sale_doctrine

And here's Third Party Rights privilege the government has given me as a buyer.

Third-party rights

Privity of contract occurs only between the parties to the contract, most commonly contract of sale of goods or services. Horizontal privity arises when the benefits from a contract are to be given to a third party. Vertical privity involves a contract between two parties, with an independent contract between one of the parties and another individual or company.

If a third party gets a benefit under a contract, it does not have the right to go against the parties to the contract beyond its entitlement to a benefit. An example of this occurs when a manufacturer sells a product to a distributor and the distributor sells the product to a retailer. The retailer then sells the product to a consumer. There is no privity of contract between the manufacturer and the consumer.

This, however, does not mean that the parties do not have another form of action e.g. Donoghue v. Stevenson – here a friend of Ms. Donoghue bought her a bottle of ginger beer, which was defective. Specifically, the ginger beer contained the partially decomposed remains of a snail. Since the contract was between her friend and the shop owner, Mrs. Donoghue could not sue under the contract, but it was established that the manufacturer has a duty of care owed to their consumers and she was awarded damages in tort.

Privity is the legal term for a close, mutual, or successive relationship to the same right of property or the power to enforce a promise or warranty.



KylieDog said:
scottie said:
I love how the only developers who bitch about used game sales are those who lack the talent to make a game that is enjoyable for long periods of time. Of course, if you make a short, shitty game, people will sell it.

 

Sorry but that is just absolute crap.  All devs suffer from used games sales.   Name any game from any developer and I can find a bunch of used games for sale.   A link you might enjoy especially too.  http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1049457/nintendo-begins-wii-war-on-used-games

 

When you buy a phone, you generally pay nothing, or some very small amount for the phone. The catch is that it is locked to the carrier

 

It is the same for Wii Speak - Nintendo are giving you this peripheral for less money than it costs them to make it. Turning around and selling it on the 2nd hand market is as immoral as getting a free phone, then hacking it to break the lock and selling it. Unfortunately, it is not as illegal and thus Nintendo needs to go to other lengths to stop this. It is not the same as 2nd hand sales of an object that a company sells for a profit. and thus I am unsure why you brought it up.



Soonerman said:
vlad321 said:
 

I don't see how my logic changed at all. It's just proving you that you are buying a digital copy, not a physical copy, and you cannot treat them the same way. Again, I want you to show me how you can perfectly make a copy of a Ferrari, until you can then you have very faulty logic. I would LOVE to see you copy the Ferrari and try to sell it. I'd be your first customer in fact.

Oh, I'm sorry. A digital copy is different from a physical copy. Guess what? To buy that digital copy you need a physical medium. But hey, I guess when I buy a car I'm not buying the engine that makes it run!!! I mean, isn't that "intellectual property?" Crap, I just realize the body of a car can be an intellectual property! I guess I don't own anything with a car!!!!

Great logic there. You're still not making your argument why I should not be able to resell my games. 

You are right, you can resell the CD, but not the content on the CD. Also that is absolutely false about how games are tied to the physical copy, there are plenty of games which are distributed over the internet without a CD or anything. Can you distribute a Ferrari over the internet? The engine is not "intellectual property" since it is not an idea but an actual item whose value is physical. I suggest you read up on what intellectual property is because now you are just talking out of your ass. If you want to copy the engine you can go right on ahead, but call me when you do. You can sell the CD of the game all you want, but you can't sell the game itself, wonder how much you'd get for a blank DVD these days.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

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vlad321 said:
Soonerman said:
vlad321 said:
 

I don't see how my logic changed at all. It's just proving you that you are buying a digital copy, not a physical copy, and you cannot treat them the same way. Again, I want you to show me how you can perfectly make a copy of a Ferrari, until you can then you have very faulty logic. I would LOVE to see you copy the Ferrari and try to sell it. I'd be your first customer in fact.

Oh, I'm sorry. A digital copy is different from a physical copy. Guess what? To buy that digital copy you need a physical medium. But hey, I guess when I buy a car I'm not buying the engine that makes it run!!! I mean, isn't that "intellectual property?" Crap, I just realize the body of a car can be an intellectual property! I guess I don't own anything with a car!!!!

Great logic there. You're still not making your argument why I should not be able to resell my games. 

You are right, you can resell the CD, but not the content on the CD. Also that is absolutely false about how games are tied to the physical copy, there are plenty of games which are distributed over the internet without a CD or anything. Can you distribute a Ferrari over the internet? The engine is not "intellectual property" since it is not an idea but an actual item whose value is physical. If you want to copy the engine you can go right on ahead, but call me when you do.

Wow!! An engine is not an intellectual property. I don't know in what world you leave, but let me refresh to you the definition of intellectual property

[quote]Intellectual property (IP) is a term referring to a number of distinct types of creations of the mind for which property rights are recognised--and the corresponding fields of law.[1] Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property include copyrightstrademarkspatentsindustrial design rights and trade secrets in some jurisdictions.

I'm tired of repeating myself to you. You have no concept of what can and cannot be sold. Look 2 posts above you. I already posted what the L-A-W says in regards to me selling something I bought. Notice how you keep using the word copy. This thread has never been about copying anything. It has been about reselling games. Learn english buddy.



Soonerman said:
vlad321 said:
Soonerman said:
vlad321 said:
 

I don't see how my logic changed at all. It's just proving you that you are buying a digital copy, not a physical copy, and you cannot treat them the same way. Again, I want you to show me how you can perfectly make a copy of a Ferrari, until you can then you have very faulty logic. I would LOVE to see you copy the Ferrari and try to sell it. I'd be your first customer in fact.

Oh, I'm sorry. A digital copy is different from a physical copy. Guess what? To buy that digital copy you need a physical medium. But hey, I guess when I buy a car I'm not buying the engine that makes it run!!! I mean, isn't that "intellectual property?" Crap, I just realize the body of a car can be an intellectual property! I guess I don't own anything with a car!!!!

Great logic there. You're still not making your argument why I should not be able to resell my games. 

You are right, you can resell the CD, but not the content on the CD. Also that is absolutely false about how games are tied to the physical copy, there are plenty of games which are distributed over the internet without a CD or anything. Can you distribute a Ferrari over the internet? The engine is not "intellectual property" since it is not an idea but an actual item whose value is physical. If you want to copy the engine you can go right on ahead, but call me when you do.

Wow!! An engine is not an intellectual property. I don't know in what world you leave, but let me refresh to you the definition of intellectual property

[quote]Intellectual property (IP) is a term referring to a number of distinct types of creations of the mind for which property rights are recognised--and the corresponding fields of law.[1] Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property include copyrightstrademarkspatentsindustrial design rights and trade secrets in some jurisdictions.

I'm tired of repeating myself to you. You have no concept of what can and cannot be sold. Look 2 posts above you. I already posted what the L-A-W says in regards to me selling something I bought. Notice how you keep using the word copy. This thread has never been about copying anything. It has been about reselling games. Learn english buddy.

Let me lay it down for you because you seem to be very confused here.

The engine is a patent, the mark Ferrari is a trademark, and the game on the CD is intellectual property. Huge differencces between all 3, ad they exist because everything is different. As I said, you have EVERY right to resell the DVD you bought from Gamestop, you have however no right to take credit for the IP that is on that DVD, so next time you want to resell your game, be sure to wipe the DVD clean.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

vlad321 said:
Soonerman said:
vlad321 said:
Soonerman said:
vlad321 said:
 

I don't see how my logic changed at all. It's just proving you that you are buying a digital copy, not a physical copy, and you cannot treat them the same way. Again, I want you to show me how you can perfectly make a copy of a Ferrari, until you can then you have very faulty logic. I would LOVE to see you copy the Ferrari and try to sell it. I'd be your first customer in fact.

Oh, I'm sorry. A digital copy is different from a physical copy. Guess what? To buy that digital copy you need a physical medium. But hey, I guess when I buy a car I'm not buying the engine that makes it run!!! I mean, isn't that "intellectual property?" Crap, I just realize the body of a car can be an intellectual property! I guess I don't own anything with a car!!!!

Great logic there. You're still not making your argument why I should not be able to resell my games. 

You are right, you can resell the CD, but not the content on the CD. Also that is absolutely false about how games are tied to the physical copy, there are plenty of games which are distributed over the internet without a CD or anything. Can you distribute a Ferrari over the internet? The engine is not "intellectual property" since it is not an idea but an actual item whose value is physical. If you want to copy the engine you can go right on ahead, but call me when you do.

Wow!! An engine is not an intellectual property. I don't know in what world you leave, but let me refresh to you the definition of intellectual property

Intellectual property (IP) is a term referring to a number of distinct types of creations of the mind for which property rights are recognised--and the corresponding fields of law.[1] Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property include copyrightstrademarkspatentsindustrial design rights and trade secrets in some jurisdictions.

I'm tired of repeating myself to you. You have no concept of what can and cannot be sold. Look 2 posts above you. I already posted what the L-A-W says in regards to me selling something I bought. Notice how you keep using the word copy. This thread has never been about copying anything. It has been about reselling games. Learn english buddy.

Let me lay it down for you because you seem to be very confused here.

The engine is a patent, the mark Ferrari is a trademark, and the game on the CD is intellectual property. Huge differencces between all 3, ad they exist because everything is different. As I said, you have EVERY right to resell the DVD you bought from Gamestop, you have however no right to take credit for the IP that is on that DVD, so next time you want to resell your game, be sure to wipe the DVD clean.

Wow. Really? I mean, so we're assuming now that only software is IP? An engine is an "industrial design" and is it stands it falls under Intellectual Property. You're making the assumption that software doesn't fall under this category because it is made with a computer. Big fail.

Oh also, if I were posing as the creator of game and sell multiple copies of it, that's copyright infringment. I never said that I took credit for creating what's inside the CD/DVD. I bought what's inside the CD or DVD for my personal use which gives me  my right to resell it because I own that particular copy.



coolbeans said:

I liked EA's original pay-wall scheme that's in ME:2 and Bad Co.2 but this new one is ridiculous imo. That puts an unneeded burden on people who like to RENT sports games (like myself).

Indeed. I do rent EA Sports games (ie NHL 10 and Fight Night Round 4) and I will continue to do so (ie. EA Sports MMA, FIFA World Cup 2010, FIFA 11, Fight Night Round 5) as well. And personally I don't think this thing is going to effect me because A) apparently you do get a 7 day free online pass trial with each game and B) I'm not just much of an online multiplayer player. For eg. After finishing career mode, getting most of the achievements and getting about 20+ fights online with Fight Night, I stopped after that and moved on to another game. As much as I love MMA, I don't see myself spending more than 7 days online with EA Sports MMA either. I'm gonna go through career first, do some achievement hunting, create some CAFs and then go online for 7 days max and then send it back in the mail.

But for sports gamers who rent AND want to play online for more than 7 days, they are fucked. And I don't think that's fair. When you rent a game, the publisher gets paid. And considering that we have things like Gamefly now that allow you to rent a game for as long as you want, there definitely are going to be gamers who want to play online for more than 7 days.

For gamers that want to play NHL, FIFA, Madden, Fight Night, EA Sports MMA, etc. on a regular, ongoing basis, yes I recommend that they drop $60 on the game. But otherwise, it's just not worth it. This is why gamers rent. The market has dictated that not every game is worth $60 to gamers and yet EA wants to blatantly ignore that. They think this scheme is going to make them more money. But they will be in for a rude awakening. The used game market and rentals market are here to stay in the console realm. Console gamers are so accustomed to relying on selling used games to fund further game purchases and rentals to save money. They aren't going to give these things up.

 

For those gamers who unapologetically accept the crusade against used games and rentals, tell me, how many games do you buy a year and how much do you spend a year on gaming software? Costs really add up when you buy all of your games new and never sell your games. Unless you buy very few games or you buy them extremely cheap (ie. $5 or under per game). Last year I pretty much bought all my games new (except one) and I bargain bin shopped most of the time (I only bought two full priced games) and yet I still spent a fortune on video game software. If you're spending $20-30 on a videogame, it still adds up when you buy a lot of video games (ie. 20+ retail games a year plus small cheap downloadable games. ie. XBL/PSN/Wiiware/VC/Steam, etc.)



While I disagree with the numbers thrown around in the article, I do think that used games hurt the game industry's revenues far more than piracy does. Unfortunately for publishers, used sales are just something they are going to have to deal with. Consumers have the right to sell their property. End of story.



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