The thing with all those "commercial" games you've listed though, is that their promotional budgets generally dwarf similar titles.  I mean in terms of design, is Metro 2033 really less commercial than say Bioshock?   Is Demon's Souls really less commercial than Monster Hunter?  Is GTR less commercial than Forza?  Is Deca Sports less commercial than Mario & Sonic?  I'm not so sure if design alone is really the key here?

Also, I think you're underselling Mario Kart Wii here, skill and technique is paramount in that game.  Bikes especially add a huge new variable and their own risk/reward... I mean yeah, generally items drops were made more liberal (to emphasize combat for multiplayer) and powersliding was simplified (specifically to prevent snaking btw) but actually winning the race, the more experience/better player will almost always win.  Just as much to the same degree as DD, honestly you should consider spending more time with the game?  Personally, I'd say it's probably the 2nd or 3rd best in the series overall (behind SMK and maybe DS), and the only area it really falls down is in the combat/arena mode (which has sucked for the series since MK64 highpoint).

"Better" can certainly be linked to market performance.  Which I was doing, talking about what the market thinks is "better".  "Ludicrous" would be your heavy handed and completely irrelevant car analogy. ;)

Also, in terms of design I wouldn't say Wii Sports or Wii Play is honestly all that innovative.  All that's changed from game designs near 2 decades old is character creation and interface.  I mean, is Wii Play really more "innovative" than something like Uncharted 2?

Trying to dismiss Wii as gift-for-kids platform is funny, given it's average age of ownership is actually higher than PS3 or 360.  "Nintendo is kiddie" will probably never die, even when they have more significantly adults using their platforms than the competition.

And your Nintendo/Apple to Microsoft/AMD analogy is also wildly off.  If anything, I'd argue Microsoft seeing PlayStation as "the enemy" is more in tune with what Iwata (purportedly) sees in their future against Apple..

According to my Nintendo channel I have played it for 105 hours, well my sister and her friends did probably half of them, but I actually played it for a month, did earn gold for all cups, unlocked all the characters, got some nice times and got tired of it. I think that it's a mess that has been made that way to appeal the biggest audience possible, and essentially I see it as part of the "wii-series" and less like a Mario Kart, unlike Mario Kart DS which I still play regurlarly to this day.

And yes the games that you mentioned are less commercial. To keep comparasion with the movie's: You could see Mario & Sonic as Tom Cruise & a Star whose movie's where once great, currently crap but who still has mainstream recognition, while Deca Sporta kinda lacks that appeal that those two stars have. 

No, what is rediculous is your god awful clarity in what you are saying. What you mean to say is some wii games have PERFORMED better in terms of sales, otherwise all you are saying is the only thing that has to be considered to determine somethings relative merit is sales. Clearly that is blatant bull**** otherwise you are saying that if a craptastic game was bundled with the 360 from launch for each console sold, it's automatically better than anything other 360 game. All you are saying is better = sales, so don't be lazy and write better sales performance. Please say how the car analogy is flawed, or just trolling?

Give me a game that comes close to the cinematic action of the Uncharted series. The only game that it is similar to is Tomb Raider, and that was just dungeon running with a pair of pixellated titties on screen.

You say it's funny that I say the Wii is for kids, but tell me this: who play on it more/for more than once in a blue moon, kids or adults? The fact that Nintendo said the wii isn't for the hardcore is enough evidence that a sane person needs to reason that the wii is for kids/very casual gamers i.e. people who play it once a week if that.

Does Microsoft make a HD game console? Yes.
Does Sony make a HD game console? Yes.
Therefore it makes sense that the two companies are in competition with one another as they are producing a very simlar product.

Does Nintendo make a game console? Yes.
Does Apple make any kind of game console or portable game console? No.
Are there any plans on them making a game console? None that we know of.
So how the flying **** are Nintendo seeing Apple as a rival? Apple make PC's, laptops and phones. Nintendo ONLY makes game consoles. The only way they could be seen as rivals are that they both make electronics, but that's such a loose comparison it's worthless.

You are making no sense at the moment. Nintendo = games only. Apple = Apple products, none of which are a game console.

if i was an investor id back nintendo and agree they have won.
unfortunatly for them, i'm a gamer and i think sony is kicking nintendos (and microsofts) ass in terms of the quality of exclusives.
sorry nintendo, try using better hardware if you want to compete next gen but it would be good if you keep the casuals happy since sony have the hardcore gamers under control.

The point maybe apart from Mario, wii fit and wii sports games what games really sell for the wii? In other words where is the money at?

Your a VGC member. Just click Wii and see how many 1m+ sellers on on the system. Or just look at Capcoms recent fiscal reports. Why 'disqualify' titles that show monstrous sales? How many 20m+ sellers have been on PS3/360? How many 10m+ sellers have been on PS3/360? How many on Wii?

You can do better than that I'm sure.

even if it goes on to sell 50m, its still a crap game.

its a shame you compare 2 numbers rather than 2 games.......a common mistake most people make and go on to call them selves gamers.

Here is this weeks wii top 50, How much here would you buy? which have sold over 5 mill (not to much to ask considering the amount of wii's out there) that are not wii fit, sport, play or a Mario vehicle? I have a wii, yes there is some good software but it is rare and hidden under a mountain of shovelware which you must conseed as truth surely.

Edit, i took the 50 out as it was a mess but you all know how to find the information.

(not only a mess but it screwed the page, sorry)

I'm saying "better" exlcusively in terms of the competitive marketplace.  What would be "rediculous" is affirming with "god awful clarity" any quality argument  one way or the other, which hinges chiefly on subjective opinion.  The public at large chooses Wii games, that makes them better in terms of the market.  This isn't exactly hard to grasp.

Your car analogy is irrelevant and offtopic because you're comparing models with a $100,000+ gap in pricepoints to consoles that come within $100 of each other (and up until last fall Wii was actually $50 more than the lowest priced HD console).  This is why car analogies fundamentally break down, not to mention cars are generally considered a necessary expense while games are purely entertainment.

And I think you've misunderstood me, I said Uncharted 2 was more innovative than Wii Play.  Hence, using your own definition, it is also more "traditional".

Also, does Sony make a games oriented handheld?  Does Nintendo?  Does Apple?  lol.