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Forums - General - Most Influential Civilization?

 

Most Influential Civilization?

British Empire 24 34.78%
 
Roman Empire (not counting Byzantine) 27 39.13%
 
Spanish Empire 2 2.90%
 
United States of America 6 8.70%
 
Islamic Empires/Dynasties 1 1.45%
 
Other (please post in detail) 9 13.04%
 
Total:69
Kasz216 on 26 April 2010
headshot91 said:
Kasz216 said:

Well... lets take a look at the list.

 

1) British Empire... too young.

2) Roman Empire... not counting the Byzantines, it doesn't really work.

3) Spanish Empire... again too young, and largely influenced by others.

4) USA... Also, too young... with the one caveat being that the "American" way of life does seem to be permiating across the world in was even the British Empire didn't when they actually OWNED most of the world.   Not yet... If the USA stays on top for a while more though... all culture may be a hybrid of US culture.

5)  Islamic Empires/Dynasties... Maybe... they did di a lot, but a lot of it didn't end up working well... a lot of stuff having to be rediscovered.

Those off the Board.

 

1) China... too inturned on themselves.

2) Greece... Alexander the Great... did do a lot.  Still... doesn't seem like enough.  They influenced the Romans... but the romans did all the real legwork.

3) Mongol Empire.  The largest land empire in the world... and debatibly the biggest in the world. 

4) Akkadians, Precursors to Bablyon and pretty much the Islamic Empire.

5) Persian Empire... Huge Empire.  Powerful... etc.

 

 

I'm going Mongols.  Why?

1) Yuan Dynasty.

2) Mughal Empire

3) They caused a crapload of destruction where they came.  This was greatly infuential... in the demography greatly changed... and you could definitly say your country wasn't the same if the Mongolians came in.

4) The Mongols lead to the rise of Moscow, and effected why Russian history ended up.

5) Greatly expanded europes knowledge of the world, which lead to colonilization and trips like Columbus.

 

What? The langauge of English permeated across the world from India to North America to Australia because they were colonies of the British at one time or another. Also, the British empire has had a MASSIVE political, linguistic (mentioned) and cultural legacy. I mean, the english langauge is the language of the world, english law is the basis for many different countries judicial systems and dont even ge tme started on the cultural aspect- Football, cricket, tennis, golf, literature,architecture, education have all been higely influenced by this empire. And also you know, the industrial revolution, and the basis of many scientific principles today was started in Britain, and spread across the world via our trade!

Eh, not so sure about the cultural legacy, language legacy i'd put more on America then the UK, though the UK should get some credit for America.

Also, it's not really the same.  The UK legacy, somehwat left traces... Americanization is practically overwriting culture.  For example the effects of Hollywood and how other countries feel they need to be protectionist just to protect their film industries... and even then the kind of movies they are making are REALLY changing and just may end up hollywood esque locally.  It's the same with most of the arts etc.

As it is, the American culture for better or worse is priming to take over as the world culture.  This may even be the case if America loses superpower status just because of it's roots at this point.



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Kantor on 26 April 2010

The Romans pretty much civilised Europe, which in turn civilised America.

So, Rome.



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highwaystar101 on 26 April 2010

I was going to come here to vote for the ancient Greeks. ?But they aren't on the poll, so I said British empire, what with being British and all.



Akvod on 26 April 2010
tarheel91 said:
Akvod said:
MontanaHatchet said:
Wait a second. If we're looking at the most influential civilizations, why would it be ones in the last thousand years? Wouldn't it be something much earlier? For example, it's pretty tough to say the Ottoman Empire was the most influential empire when you considered how much of their entire existence is descended from the Akkadians. If I was going to pick the most influential civilization, it wouldn't be something from the last millennia, and certainly not the British Empire. It's kind of like asking who the most influential man in history was. It was probably the guy who first discovered fire (or something of the sort), but we don't know his name. But we do know about the first empires.

Like I say when people bring up the Greeks, who do people look up to when they look at the similar/borrowed concepts? The Romans. And like I said, the Roman didn't just copy Greek culture word for word, just like Japan didn't just take Chinese, Korean, and eventually European/American cultures word for word, but adopted them, changed them, and made them their own, so that when future generations look for a foundation, they turn to them, not to the influencers of the influencers.

The Romans may not have been THE civilization that invented concrete, but did that civilization create the Pantheon? Did that civilization utilize it and spread it across like the Romans? Did the Greek conquer the West? No. They conquered the East, and soon Rome conquered that, and soon the Muslims conquered that as well.

But I think you do have a point in that maybe it's sorta pointless to ask my question. I mean, the Romans had a huge impact, but so did the British. Do we divide it up into spheres? That makes it even more complicated, way too much for the poll I made.

So I guess my poll is a bit pointless, but at least it's getting people to talk about history, and realize how interconnected we are, in both geography and time, and realize that each civilization, whether it is in a dark age, or a golden age  currently, had their own glory once.


But I do want to reemphasize the point that "X civilization did it FIRST" is a bad way of judging things. I say that if we are going to try to debate it, we should remember that the question is who "influenced" the most? Simply tacking on the originator of some idea, to the executor of that idea is lazy. We should be asking, who actually spread that thing, X, around the world? Who actually is the one that, either through conquest, colonization, investment, immigration, etc imposed some idea, technology, etc to others?

I really don't like that last paragraph (and that's probably why I don't like your post in general).  You think creating something isn't influential?  It doesn't matter if Romans spread a concept (although that's VERY debatable, the Greeks actually recorded a ton of stuff, so most people go directly to the source of the classics if they want to study them), it's still Greek thinking that's influencing everyone.  Is the Odyssey somehow Roman or even British because those were the civilizations that spread the story?  No.  It remains Greek.  Is Plato considered a Roman?  No.  The same holds true for inventions.  That's why I really think the only logical answer to this question is China.  China was centuries ahead of the west for millenia when it came to technology, and a good portion of that technology DID influence the West, especially in the centures leading up to the Renaissance.  At the same time, they exerted far more control, both culturaly and politcally, over the East than any civilization did over the West.

But I have 2 points:

1) The Greeks didn't spread that culture to the west. Alexander the Great only conquered the East.

2) Roman culture had developed for centuries after hellenization, and was there centuries before. Like I said, it wasn't simply a copy, but an adaption. And the one that influenced everyone, is not the Greek culture, but the Roman one.

 

Here's an analogy. Imagine there's a book, and then there's a movie. Imagine that the movie deviates, crucially, from the book. But the majority of people know the movie and have watched it, while the book isn't. Will you say that the book was influential, or the movie?



Akvod on 26 April 2010

Diversity of Roman art:

Republican Verism- Etruscan roots

Augustan Art/Classicalism- HUGE Greek influence

Return to Verism, Flavian Dynasty

Soldier Emperors

Diocletian Cubism- Sorta evolves from the revival in verism from the soldier era IMHO. Later becomes a very Christian art under Constantine.

Jesus in Majesty

Empire splits, under Romulus Augustulus (Romulus is the founder of Rome, Augustus is the one who started the Empire) Western Half collapses.

 



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tarheel91 on 26 April 2010
Akvod said:
tarheel91 said:
Akvod said:
MontanaHatchet said:
Wait a second. If we're looking at the most influential civilizations, why would it be ones in the last thousand years? Wouldn't it be something much earlier? For example, it's pretty tough to say the Ottoman Empire was the most influential empire when you considered how much of their entire existence is descended from the Akkadians. If I was going to pick the most influential civilization, it wouldn't be something from the last millennia, and certainly not the British Empire. It's kind of like asking who the most influential man in history was. It was probably the guy who first discovered fire (or something of the sort), but we don't know his name. But we do know about the first empires.

Like I say when people bring up the Greeks, who do people look up to when they look at the similar/borrowed concepts? The Romans. And like I said, the Roman didn't just copy Greek culture word for word, just like Japan didn't just take Chinese, Korean, and eventually European/American cultures word for word, but adopted them, changed them, and made them their own, so that when future generations look for a foundation, they turn to them, not to the influencers of the influencers.

The Romans may not have been THE civilization that invented concrete, but did that civilization create the Pantheon? Did that civilization utilize it and spread it across like the Romans? Did the Greek conquer the West? No. They conquered the East, and soon Rome conquered that, and soon the Muslims conquered that as well.

But I think you do have a point in that maybe it's sorta pointless to ask my question. I mean, the Romans had a huge impact, but so did the British. Do we divide it up into spheres? That makes it even more complicated, way too much for the poll I made.

So I guess my poll is a bit pointless, but at least it's getting people to talk about history, and realize how interconnected we are, in both geography and time, and realize that each civilization, whether it is in a dark age, or a golden age  currently, had their own glory once.


But I do want to reemphasize the point that "X civilization did it FIRST" is a bad way of judging things. I say that if we are going to try to debate it, we should remember that the question is who "influenced" the most? Simply tacking on the originator of some idea, to the executor of that idea is lazy. We should be asking, who actually spread that thing, X, around the world? Who actually is the one that, either through conquest, colonization, investment, immigration, etc imposed some idea, technology, etc to others?

I really don't like that last paragraph (and that's probably why I don't like your post in general).  You think creating something isn't influential?  It doesn't matter if Romans spread a concept (although that's VERY debatable, the Greeks actually recorded a ton of stuff, so most people go directly to the source of the classics if they want to study them), it's still Greek thinking that's influencing everyone.  Is the Odyssey somehow Roman or even British because those were the civilizations that spread the story?  No.  It remains Greek.  Is Plato considered a Roman?  No.  The same holds true for inventions.  That's why I really think the only logical answer to this question is China.  China was centuries ahead of the west for millenia when it came to technology, and a good portion of that technology DID influence the West, especially in the centures leading up to the Renaissance.  At the same time, they exerted far more control, both culturaly and politcally, over the East than any civilization did over the West.

But I have 2 points:

1) The Greeks didn't spread that culture to the west. Alexander the Great only conquered the East.

2) Roman culture had developed for centuries after hellenization, and was there centuries before. Like I said, it wasn't simply a copy, but an adaption. And the one that influenced everyone, is not the Greek culture, but the Roman one.

 

Here's an analogy. Imagine there's a book, and then there's a movie. Imagine that the movie deviates, crucially, from the book. But the majority of people know the movie and have watched it, while the book isn't. Will you say that the book was influential, or the movie?

Again, I gave you that Rome spread Greek culture (although, really, after Rome, it was historical records that spread Greek culture more than anything).  However, that doesn't change the fact that Greece is responsible for the great majority of classical culture.  Even if you want to argue that Rome influenced everyone after them, Greece influenced Rome, and thus influenced everyone influenced by Rome.  Coming up with something that affects others is the greatest form of influence possible.

To prove my point, when people think of classical philosophy, who do they think of?  Plato.  When people think of classical literature, who do they think of?  Homer, Aristotle, etc.  How do people know the names of the Greek/Roman Gods?  By their GREEK names.  Creation is far more influential that spreading or adaptation.

The issue with your analogy is that the differences between the book and the movie are crucial.  That is not the case with Greek and Roman culture.  The differences are subtle, and rarely, if ever, are the central ideas different.  By inserting a crucial difference in the movie, the director of the movie is creating something of his own.  That is why his influence can be recognized.  Plus, regardless of whether they realize it or not, the moviegoers are still being greatly influenced by the writer of the book, as the majority of the content of the movie is still his creation.



pastro243 on 26 April 2010
headshot91 said:
Kasz216 said:

Well... lets take a look at the list.

 

1) British Empire... too young.

2) Roman Empire... not counting the Byzantines, it doesn't really work.

3) Spanish Empire... again too young, and largely influenced by others.

4) USA... Also, too young... with the one caveat being that the "American" way of life does seem to be permiating across the world in was even the British Empire didn't when they actually OWNED most of the world.   Not yet... If the USA stays on top for a while more though... all culture may be a hybrid of US culture.

5)  Islamic Empires/Dynasties... Maybe... they did di a lot, but a lot of it didn't end up working well... a lot of stuff having to be rediscovered.

Those off the Board.

 

1) China... too inturned on themselves.

2) Greece... Alexander the Great... did do a lot.  Still... doesn't seem like enough.  They influenced the Romans... but the romans did all the real legwork.

3) Mongol Empire.  The largest land empire in the world... and debatibly the biggest in the world. 

4) Akkadians, Precursors to Bablyon and pretty much the Islamic Empire.

5) Persian Empire... Huge Empire.  Powerful... etc.

 

 

I'm going Mongols.  Why?

1) Yuan Dynasty.

2) Mughal Empire

3) They caused a crapload of destruction where they came.  This was greatly infuential... in the demography greatly changed... and you could definitly say your country wasn't the same if the Mongolians came in.

4) The Mongols lead to the rise of Moscow, and effected why Russian history ended up.

5) Greatly expanded europes knowledge of the world, which lead to colonilization and trips like Columbus.

 

What? The langauge of English permeated across the world from India to North America to Australia because they were colonies of the British at one time or another. Also, the British empire has had a MASSIVE political, linguistic (mentioned) and cultural legacy. I mean, the english langauge is the language of the world, english law is the basis for many different countries judicial systems and dont even ge tme started on the cultural aspect- Football, cricket, tennis, golf, literature,architecture, education have all been higely influenced by this empire. And also you know, the industrial revolution, and the basis of many scientific principles today was started in Britain, and spread across the world via our trade!


I think roman law has had a bigger impact. And most of those things can be said of most guys on the list, spanish empire had almost everything in america and passed spanish(castellano) as a language.

Britain had an impact on politics, but so did france, USA, Greeks and romans.

So I think the one that made most, if that can be decided, are the greeks in the way of thinking and organizing and the romans in terms of putting those things in a lot of people with later empires expanding on that. Of course this is for western civilization since I think China and Japan have also played important roles.

Also, romans did a lot, but they kinda got stuck in their last part in technology, art, economy, etc... at least the occidental part.



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Rath on 26 April 2010
ManusJustus said:

Greek civilzation influenced the Romans, so Greeks should most of the credit for Western Civilization and Western ideals (democracy, language, monogamy, and so forth).

Other than the obvious Middle Eastern Empires (Egypt, Babylon), we should also consider Chinese and Indian civilizations. They made huge contributions to civilization, from gunpowder to mathematics, but if you live in the West you probably didn't cover that much in school, so you think they weren't as important.

But the Romans took the Greek philosophy (by brute force as it happens) and spread it, essentially creating todays developed world. The developed world today is essentially based on where the romans conquered and where those countries managed to outnumber the natives (ie. America, Australia, New Zealand).

The ideals of Western civilization came from the Greeks, but without the Romans it would never have spread.



tarheel91 on 26 April 2010
Rath said:
ManusJustus said:

Greek civilzation influenced the Romans, so Greeks should most of the credit for Western Civilization and Western ideals (democracy, language, monogamy, and so forth).

Other than the obvious Middle Eastern Empires (Egypt, Babylon), we should also consider Chinese and Indian civilizations. They made huge contributions to civilization, from gunpowder to mathematics, but if you live in the West you probably didn't cover that much in school, so you think they weren't as important.

But the Romans took the Greek philosophy (by brute force as it happens) and spread it, essentially creating todays developed world. The developed world today is essentially based on where the romans conquered and where those countries managed to outnumber the natives (ie. America, Australia, New Zealand).

The ideals of Western civilization came from the Greeks, but without the Romans it would never have spread.

We're talking about influence here, not importance.



Rath on 26 April 2010
tarheel91 said:
Rath said:
ManusJustus said:

Greek civilzation influenced the Romans, so Greeks should most of the credit for Western Civilization and Western ideals (democracy, language, monogamy, and so forth).

Other than the obvious Middle Eastern Empires (Egypt, Babylon), we should also consider Chinese and Indian civilizations. They made huge contributions to civilization, from gunpowder to mathematics, but if you live in the West you probably didn't cover that much in school, so you think they weren't as important.

But the Romans took the Greek philosophy (by brute force as it happens) and spread it, essentially creating todays developed world. The developed world today is essentially based on where the romans conquered and where those countries managed to outnumber the natives (ie. America, Australia, New Zealand).

The ideals of Western civilization came from the Greeks, but without the Romans it would never have spread.

We're talking about influence here, not importance.

Can you explain what you mean please?