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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS3 Custom Firmware 3.21OO Release Imminent

joeorc said:
bowspearer said:
Random Canadian said:
dude Australia is not the whole fucking world, you are being worse then Americans who think American sales > world.

You keep calling people ignorant but you are just showing that you are the ignorant one by not accepting the fact that in other parts of the world when you agree to something you are boned.

Plus this thread was about (non-existant) custom FW not your personal quest to fill the internets with crying. BTW how about you post something about how you have linux installed and cant go on PSN because you will lose your OOS/linux install.

Probably fucking not.

Actually the only one making that ASSumption here is you. Had you bothered to read you would have noticed that the previous poster was referring to my specific case. When people talked about the law regarding the ACCC they were referring to Australian law. Furthermore Australia and the EU (whose consumer protection laws are virtually identical) make up the vast majority of the western market for Sony. Maybe those gamers in other parts of the world (limited parts of Asia and North & South America) need to focus on getting similar consumer protection laws so this kind of thing can't happen to them again so that they're not just limited to lawsuits where money becomes an issue.

Also the custom firmware came about because of Sony's actions and so it was bound to get into that- which it did, courtesy of the Sony suck ups - clearly you were too busy screwing yourself by your own attitude to notice that. If you want to blame anyone for thisw thread getting off topic, point the finger squarely at them where it belongs.

Do everyone here a favour and pull your head out of your backside!

you want to talk about pointing the finger at where it belong's?

let's shall we-

as for doing CFW in response to Sony's action's.

that is lame and an insult to think this was in response to:

No, that's complete an utter BS, IT CAME ABOUT BECAUSE SOME CONSUMER THOUGHT THE RULE'S DO NOT APPLY TO HIM.

That's How it came about while screwing the d@mn rest of us in the process.

Geohot was no doubt working on CFW such before he even released his Hack to the internet because he knew what Sony was going to do if he released it.  An yet he went right ahead and did it,

The CFW he was already working on and not to mention already getting downgrader chip's for his PS3.

where right on the web site for those downgrader chip's states:

"Our Team or any other associated companies do not condone the illegal copying and/or distribution of computer software for the game consoles or any other format. You must act accordingly to the laws of your country! Respect the laws, Respect the gaming industry, and use our products accordingly in its original state."

and once again Geohot does not think the rule's apply to him,

If Geohot would have just kept his mouth shut and not released to everyone on the internet we would not be in this mess.

I love how you and other's See only Sony is to blame for this.

So like I said go an do what you have to do and while your at it

why are you not seeking damages also from Geohot?

o'l that's right "HE'S A CONSUMER"

Since he broke every d@mn rule in the His action's caused this and through Geohot's own

Negligence

caused all this

why are you not pointing the finger at who' is responsible

Computer Misuse Act 1990

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1990/ukpga_19900018_en_1#pb1-l1g3

 

 

 

 

 

No actually the legal argument came about because someone started discussing the legalities of CFW when the whole situation has come about because Sony's illegal actions. Regardless of what Geohot has done, it does not justify Sony breaking the law any. You keep sprouting nonsense, but then why is the ACCC currently investigating the situation? Why did the NSW Dept of Fair Trading tell me flat out that what Sony ha done was illegal? Why did Amazon.uk refund that customer (something you'd only do if you knew the law was clear cut and were trying to avoid a criminal investigation taking place.

You keep wanting to excuse Sony by blaming their arrogance and criminal behavoiur on his actions, but it's absolutely ludicrous.

Since you want to talk about legalities, let's put this in a very brutal context. Suppose for a minute that Person A who I do not know and am in the same restaurant with by chance has made serious enough death threats against Person B that they fear that they'll be murdered any day. Person B then gets hold of a semi automatic weapon, bursts into the restaurant and kills every single person including me. By your logic, it's Person A that should be charged with my pre-meditated murder and not Person B when it was Person B who decided they were above the law and wanted to take extreme measures, who got hold of a semi automatic weapon, and killed me, and every other innocent bystander in an effort to make sure they killed the Person A and anyone who MIGHT be associating with them.By your argument, to translate it to this scenario, he was justified in commiting a massacre because he had every reason to believe that his life was in danger from a single victim of several at the scene.

What court of law in any country would let Person B off in that scenario?

You can quote all the computer misuse laws you want, but those only apply where actual misuse has taken place. As Sony's actions here extend far beyond those cases (in this case just a single case) and break the law in infinitely more instances, you can't even claim that the law breach is justifiable. Geohot didn't remove my otherOS function, Sony did, so why exactly should I blame Geohot in my own personal situation when consumer protection laws clearly state that this is irrelevant?



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joeorc said:
it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner closes off that section with a new door key card but your old key card will not work . would you sue the owner of the building because your old key will not work and you have to get a new key?

No actually the exact analogy is it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there, all of you living there probably are.



bowspearer said:
joeorc said:
it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner closes off that section with a new door key card but your old key card will not work . would you sue the owner of the building because your old key will not work and you have to get a new key?

No actually the exact analogy is it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there, all of you living there probably are.

no it's not at all.

Your analogy =

and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door (hacker exploits a security weakness)

and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot (locks down all ps3s)

regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there (hacker is a ps3 user)

all of you living there probably are. (all ps3 users are hackers)

Your metaphor is terrible.

 

 



Random Canadian said:
bowspearer said:
Random Canadian said:
dude Australia is not the whole fucking world, you are being worse then Americans who think American sales > world.

You keep calling people ignorant but you are just showing that you are the ignorant one by not accepting the fact that in other parts of the world when you agree to something you are boned.

Plus this thread was about (non-existant) custom FW not your personal quest to fill the internets with crying. BTW how about you post something about how you have linux installed and cant go on PSN because you will lose your OOS/linux install.

Probably fucking not.

Actually the only one making that ASSumption here is you. Had you bothered to read you would have noticed that the previous poster was referring to my specific case. When people talked about the law regarding the ACCC they were referring to Australian law. Furthermore Australia and the EU (whose consumer protection laws are virtually identical) make up the vast majority of the western market for Sony. Maybe those gamers in other parts of the world (limited parts of Asia and North & South America) need to focus on getting similar consumer protection laws so this kind of thing can't happen to them again so that they're not just limited to lawsuits where money becomes an issue.

Also the custom firmware came about because of Sony's actions and so it was bound to get into that- which it did, courtesy of the Sony suck ups - clearly you were too busy screwing yourself by your own attitude to notice that. If you want to blame anyone for thisw thread getting off topic, point the finger squarely at them where it belongs.

Do everyone here a favour and pull your head out of your backside!

Oh come on Bowboy we were actually having a nice chat about the lack of known deployment and other issues with Custom FW a few pages back, which if you didnt notice is the topic of this thread, sort of.

Did you even notice that the whole argument about legalities got started up right back on page 1 and has been popping up intermittently ever since? Guess not. Oh and FYI, what started it up this time was someone else specifically asking a question about the legalities of the removal. But I guess we can add that to the list of things you've failed at comprehending. Seriously, are you 7 years old, because you've demonstrated the comprehension skills of a 7 year old.

But you have to keep bringing "consumer protection laws" and how butt-hurt you are about your loss of a feature you dont use.

(see bolded above)

Already addressed this in another thread genius.

Nothing you can say changes the FACT that your ONLY posts on this website are negative comments about an issue you fail to provide proof even effects you.


Then I guess you missed this post: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/post.php?id=3318314

Before you go around throwing stones you might want to take into consideration what your post history says about you. I can think of a few words but im sure they would result in a warning.

 

I don't even have to resort to that, your own posts speak volumes for me in that regard.

 



theprof00 said:
bowspearer said:
joeorc said:
it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner closes off that section with a new door key card but your old key card will not work . would you sue the owner of the building because your old key will not work and you have to get a new key?

No actually the exact analogy is it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there, all of you living there probably are.

no it's not at all.

Your analogy =

and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door (hacker exploits a security weakness)

and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot (locks down all ps3s)

regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there (hacker is a ps3 user)

all of you living there probably are. (all ps3 users are hackers)

Your metaphor is terrible.

 

 

And yet that is exactly what happened. If the type of metaphor is bad (as mine was a paraphrased response) blame joeorc for the original.



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It's more like;
You live in a condominium which has a business, a veranda, and business-lounge on the 4th floor.
Previously, you could go to the fourth floor and eat in the lounge and watch tv or hang out on the veranda.
Due to complaints about people coming in at all hours of the night and missing papers from the office, and people disrupting workflow during the day, residents are denied access to floor 4. Unfortunately for the office guys, they now no longer have access to the condo pool, roof, bar, and gym too, and can only access the 4th floor.
Condo Association says,
"if you pay 299.99$, we will give you another key to provide access to the whole building but we will be keeping an eye out for anyone that does anything and you will be evicted if problems arise".



bowspearer said:
theprof00 said:
bowspearer said:
joeorc said:
it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner closes off that section with a new door key card but your old key card will not work . would you sue the owner of the building because your old key will not work and you have to get a new key?

No actually the exact analogy is it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there, all of you living there probably are.

no it's not at all.

Your analogy =

and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door (hacker exploits a security weakness)

and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot (locks down all ps3s)

regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there (hacker is a ps3 user)

all of you living there probably are. (all ps3 users are hackers)

Your metaphor is terrible.

 

 

And yet that is exactly what happened. If the type of metaphor is bad (as mine was a paraphrased response) blame joeorc for the original.

joercs makes sense though

Person vandalizes the locks in a corridor of the estate. (Hacker exploits Other OS)
landlord seals off corridor, changing the locks. (Sony removes access to Other OS)
Says that a new key will work for everything, but that your old key will lack ability to access corridor (Sony says if you buy a new ps3 you can access everything, but your old ps3 can only be used for games) (slight problem in the metaphor, it should be an "either/or" analogy. This could be remedied by saying, "you can either live here and not have access, or live in the corridor")

But yeah, his metaphor is far more appropriate than yours. You brought it to the point of charicature)



theprof00 said:
bowspearer said:
theprof00 said:
bowspearer said:
joeorc said:
it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner closes off that section with a new door key card but your old key card will not work . would you sue the owner of the building because your old key will not work and you have to get a new key?

No actually the exact analogy is it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there, all of you living there probably are.

no it's not at all.

Your analogy =

and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door (hacker exploits a security weakness)

and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot (locks down all ps3s)

regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there (hacker is a ps3 user)

all of you living there probably are. (all ps3 users are hackers)

Your metaphor is terrible.

 

 

And yet that is exactly what happened. If the type of metaphor is bad (as mine was a paraphrased response) blame joeorc for the original.

joercs makes sense though

Person vandalizes the locks in a corridor of the estate. (Hacker exploits Other OS)
landlord seals off corridor, changing the locks. (Sony removes access to Other OS)
Says that a new key will work for everything, but that your old key will lack ability to access corridor (Sony says if you buy a new ps3 you can access everything, but your old ps3 can only be used for games) (slight problem in the metaphor, it should be an "either/or" analogy. This could be remedied by saying, "you can either live here and not have access, or live in the corridor")

But yeah, his metaphor is far more appropriate than yours. You brought it to the point of charicature)

Since we are talking about metaphor, I like this analogy better:

Your mother tells you: "Hey we are going to move to a new house with less crime rate.. etc but we can't bring some of your toys to the new house" (New firmware with something left behind)

You then have a choice, you either tell your mother "Hey mom, I paid for my toys and I love my toys, I am going to stay in the old house without your support" (not upgrading from 3.15) or you can say "Ok, Mom, I'll leave my toys behind and come to the new house with your support" (upgrade to new firmware with your toys left behind).



Wlakiz said:
theprof00 said:
bowspearer said:
theprof00 said:
bowspearer said:
joeorc said:
it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner closes off that section with a new door key card but your old key card will not work . would you sue the owner of the building because your old key will not work and you have to get a new key?

No actually the exact analogy is it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there, all of you living there probably are.

no it's not at all.

Your analogy =

and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door (hacker exploits a security weakness)

and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot (locks down all ps3s)

regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there (hacker is a ps3 user)

all of you living there probably are. (all ps3 users are hackers)

Your metaphor is terrible.

 

 

And yet that is exactly what happened. If the type of metaphor is bad (as mine was a paraphrased response) blame joeorc for the original.

joercs makes sense though

Person vandalizes the locks in a corridor of the estate. (Hacker exploits Other OS)
landlord seals off corridor, changing the locks. (Sony removes access to Other OS)
Says that a new key will work for everything, but that your old key will lack ability to access corridor (Sony says if you buy a new ps3 you can access everything, but your old ps3 can only be used for games) (slight problem in the metaphor, it should be an "either/or" analogy. This could be remedied by saying, "you can either live here and not have access, or live in the corridor")

But yeah, his metaphor is far more appropriate than yours. You brought it to the point of charicature)

Since we are talking about metaphor, I like this analogy better:

Your mother tells you: "Hey we are going to move to a new house with less crime rate.. etc but we can't bring some of your toys to the new house" (New firmware with something left behind)

You then have a choice, you either tell your mother "Hey mom, I paid for my toys and I love my toys, I am going to stay in the old house without your support" (not upgrading from 3.15) or you can say "Ok, Mom, I'll leave my toys behind and come to the new house with your support" (upgrade to new firmware with your toys left behind).

Actually it's your analogy which doesn't hold up. The problem is that in places such as the EU and Australia, what's made this ilegal is that fact that what was advertised was both an online gaming console and a media centre Linux PC. It was marketted as both, people bought it on those grounds and now one of those features (along with the ability to play any games or blu-ray discs if you keep the media centre pc functionality) is ripped out- I can actually get you exactly where Sony were quoted as saying it was capable of all of the above in press releases by going to the court documents submitted for a class action suit against Sony in the US.

The problem there is that under Australia Law, if a person buys something to use it fro a purpose advertised or implied by the manufacturer, then the product is legally required to be able to perform those functions, for at least the term of the warranty. Under those laws, forcing consumers to have to make that choice is in and of itself, illegal.

It's for that reason your analogy is wildly inaccurate, particularly when the EU and Australia (along with any other countries with similar consumer protection laws) arguably make up a far greater marketshare than North America, and therefore for the majority of users this is as much a criminal matter as opposed to a civil matter, as say, if Sony were guilty of Tax evasion (which they now are in the EU as of April 1st this year).



bowspearer said:
Wlakiz said:
theprof00 said:
bowspearer said:
theprof00 said:
bowspearer said:
joeorc said:
it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner closes off that section with a new door key card but your old key card will not work . would you sue the owner of the building because your old key will not work and you have to get a new key?

No actually the exact analogy is it's like you move into a new rent controlled building, and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there, all of you living there probably are.

no it's not at all.

Your analogy =

and an someone vandalizes a section of the building's door (hacker exploits a security weakness)

and so to tighten security the building owner evicts everyone right on the spot (locks down all ps3s)

regardless of whatever laws exist that prevent him from doing it because as one of you is a vandal living there (hacker is a ps3 user)

all of you living there probably are. (all ps3 users are hackers)

Your metaphor is terrible.

 

 

And yet that is exactly what happened. If the type of metaphor is bad (as mine was a paraphrased response) blame joeorc for the original.

joercs makes sense though

Person vandalizes the locks in a corridor of the estate. (Hacker exploits Other OS)
landlord seals off corridor, changing the locks. (Sony removes access to Other OS)
Says that a new key will work for everything, but that your old key will lack ability to access corridor (Sony says if you buy a new ps3 you can access everything, but your old ps3 can only be used for games) (slight problem in the metaphor, it should be an "either/or" analogy. This could be remedied by saying, "you can either live here and not have access, or live in the corridor")

But yeah, his metaphor is far more appropriate than yours. You brought it to the point of charicature)

Since we are talking about metaphor, I like this analogy better:

Your mother tells you: "Hey we are going to move to a new house with less crime rate.. etc but we can't bring some of your toys to the new house" (New firmware with something left behind)

You then have a choice, you either tell your mother "Hey mom, I paid for my toys and I love my toys, I am going to stay in the old house without your support" (not upgrading from 3.15) or you can say "Ok, Mom, I'll leave my toys behind and come to the new house with your support" (upgrade to new firmware with your toys left behind).

Actually it's your analogy which doesn't hold up. The problem is that in places such as the EU and Australia, what's made this ilegal is that fact that what was advertised was both an online gaming console and a media centre Linux PC. It was marketted as both, people bought it on those grounds and now one of those features (along with the ability to play any games or blu-ray discs if you keep the media centre pc functionality) is ripped out- I can actually get you exactly where Sony were quoted as saying it was capable of all of the above in press releases by going to the court documents submitted for a class action suit against Sony in the US.

The problem there is that under Australia Law, if a person buys something to use it fro a purpose advertised or implied by the manufacturer, then the product is legally required to be able to perform those functions, for at least the term of the warranty. Under those laws, forcing consumers to have to make that choice is in and of itself, illegal.

It's for that reason your analogy is wildly inaccurate, particularly when the EU and Australia (along with any other countries with similar consumer protection laws) arguably make up a far greater marketshare than North America, and therefore for the majority of users this is as much a criminal matter as opposed to a civil matter, as say, if Sony were guilty of Tax evasion (which they now are in the EU as of April 1st this year).

For the first part, you are refering to 'bait advertisment' which in Trade Practice 1974, state that it is only considered 'bait advertisement' if the product, service and price was offered at unreasonable period length of time . You need to find an advertisement made in the last two years that explictly and implictly state that PS3's purpose is to offer gaming, movie and media center Linux PC (Ok, you'll have to show me where its states about media center linux.. because PS3 only offers loading of otheros, it does not directly support any Linux operating system, although it recommends YDL), . Also, you have to make sure the website you linked as advertisement is valid in your region. For example, if they advertise in a NA hosted website, it may not mean the advertisment is meant for you.. unless you can find an offical link from the EU/AU main site to the said advertisement.

Regarding to breaking waranty, Sony would be relying on Terms of contract and Under Trade practice 1974 section 69 it is to be determined if:

whether the buyer knew or ought reasonably to have known of the existence and extent of the term (having regard, among other things, to any custom of the trade and any previous course of dealing between the parties);