You should have used CoD instead of CS. CoD is a lot more noob friendly than CS (which already is). At least CoD 2...

The problem with your argument is Mario Kart DS and Wii totally broke the gameplay.  I can argee that a lot of people whine about CS and Brawl when those games are actually quite balanced, but the latest Mario Kart games have been totally broken to the extent that you can be completely in the lead for the entire race, and then get hit by 2 blue turle shells and a POW block in the last half of the 3rd lap and be in 11th place.  And there's nothing you can do about it.  And it happens quite often.

Now if you're talking about Mario Kart 64 or Super Mario Kart, then its a little more balanced.

As for harder games being easier to learn, I think that's dependant on the game.  Take a game like Starcraft.  That game takes some time to learn, but to get 'good' at it now adays takes years due to all that ridiculous rules and techniques people employ.  Now on the flip side, look at a game such as Smash Bros Melee, that game doesn't take much to learn at all, but on the same token, just like Starcraft, if you want to consider yourself 'good', you have to learn all these 'techniques' and 'exploits' that people do to keep up or else you can't consider yourself 'pro'.

I would have understood what he was going for if he said COD. I mean he does have a point, games like COD and MK don't really give you much of an advantage if you are simply good, sure you can be a master at the game and kick everyone's ass but if you're merely good you could easily be owned by a noob.

If you compare that to Battlefield or Unreal Tournament and then Gran Turismo, you have the bad players, the good players and the experts. In those games being good usually means you can beat people who are new at the game pretty easily.

But I wouldn't say they're harder exactly it's more there's less reward for being merely good. Like I generally do worse at COD than battlefield because things like aim assist in COD mean anyone can kill you really, while in Battlefield that usually results in that person firing to the right of you wondering why his bullets aren't being attracted to you. That and Battlefield lacks the knifes

I'm sorry, but you're wrong about Melee (right about Brawl, though), in order to play Melee competitively you need to learn some basic techniques, that without them, a person who knows them, but otherwise is in the same "skill level", will still win in 9 out of 10 matches.

What the hell does CS in that sentence, another b00n that doesn't have any clue what's he talking about.

Game like Starcraft is the exact same thing as CS. It's not complex, but it's about experience expectations and micro. You can be complete douche with IQ below -50 as long as you can micro 4 Pool or basicaly any similar tactic. Starcraft of Warcraft RTS games have never been as much about tactics as about quick decision making, adaptation and super fast reflexes. Yes, experience comes with that, but I can learn every single tactic there is to be played in that given game (I was never big in starcraft, but amongst my friends are some of the former W3 WGC contenders, we've played fair amount of W3TFT on LANs and Bootcamps) and still sucks, since my micro is so lame and I get lost during the game thanks to my nonexistant multitasking ability.

So rules and techniques are the least you have to worry about. It's your micro and multitasking abilities, which can be improved only upon playing and getting your ass handed to you over and over. That's where it's so similar to Counter Strike. It's not about the ability to learn some tactics, it's about the true gaming "skill".

Edge guarding, L cancelling, Sliding, Teching, Wave Dashing, Shuffling and Chain Throwing aren't basic techniques.  That is, they aren't things a normal player learns by playing the game normally.  And as such, it makes the gap between an 'advanced' player of melee and someone who doesn't use those techniques very large.  You can learn those techniques over time however.  But on the same token, someone can also play the game on the basic level just fine without learning those things.

Sorry...I don't quite follow what you're trying to say.  First off, I'm not saying Starcraft or CS don't require skill at all.  Nor did I say Starcraft wasn't about Micromanagement.  However, Starcraft and CS are not at all alike, even when it comes to being about skill.  Counter Strike is about quick reflexes and memorization of levels while Starcraft is about micromanagement and staying ahead of your enemy (in resources, map space and knowledge).

My comment about 'rules and techniques' applied to when you were trying to play 'advanced Starcraft'.  Which would basically mean you were playing Koreans or high level players (who mostly play Koreans).  AKA you would be mostly playing Lost Temple 1v1 matches.  When you're always playing the same map with the same set of conditions, the game constantly comes down to the same scenarios.  Which turns out to be who can scout the best and who can expand the fastest.  And that's what 'advanced' Starcraft is.

I'm very sorry. Mario Kart is not hard to master. Not at all. What is hard to master in Mario Kart? Especially the Wii version. The only "hard" thing about MK is that stupid catch-up mode they put into the game so that shitty players might have any chance at all. MK franchise went to hell after SNES/64, pick your version (I'm at 64). Double Dash was decent at best. And the Wii one? Crappy, dumbed down KART game including bikes with the most ridiculous boost EVER. A lot of the skills needed in the past games are gone, replaced with stupid jumps/tricks, bad turn-boost method and annoying one-wheeling bikes. I mean, what happened to gaps like the one on Wario's Stadium? Where you could fall down and actually had to spend time driving back. Now you just get fished up and placed somewhere. Wario's Stadium was the most epic experience EVER. Playing with friends, always afraid of getting hit by that lighting on the big jump. All that was fun in MK is gone. GONE! 

And SSBB easy to learn hard to master? Easy to learn yes, but they took away all the "master" parts from SSBM (and no, I did not enjoy the competitive style used in Melee, wavedashing, cliffhanging etc. Never played this way. And my favourite characters are all low tier characters standing little chance in competitive play anyways). MK Wii and SSBB are by far the two most disappointing games ever in my book (yes, ever). Nintendo took away the skills and fun from the games, making them easy for anyone to play and master. Now MK is more about what items you get, because all my friends have mastered the "driving" and then there's the bikes with crazy boost abilities. For me they ruined the two franchises/games I have played the most ever. have been playing all MK and all SSB to death. Tried MK Wii and Brawl a couple of days at launch and never thought about buying them. Apparently a lot of people disagree....

Conclusion: MK Wii and Brawl = Easy to learn and easy to master. I can't understand how you see these games as hard to master.... bad games to pick if you want to "prove" your "theory" or whatever you would call it

Are you talking from your personal experience, someone's else or from what you've read around the web? "advanced Starcraft" as any "advanced" level in any game allways comes down to the same scenarios and same conditions. When we've played as CTs on de_prodigy for the 100th time, things don't get too "interesting" anymore. The same can be said for any game. I know the basics of Starcraft, I know my Warcraft 3 pretty well and I know CS through and through. The most important ability in SC was, is and allways will be micromanagement. Everything else comes from experience which is gained through playing and watching replays. I can look up all the famous matches of korean stars, study how they play and why they do what they do, but in the end, all that is for nothing, if you micro sucks. Starcraft = micro. That is a fact. You can master everything else in that game during one weekend of rigorous training. (I've seen that, during bootcamps RTS gamers had trainers who were going through every silly information, tech tree, build tree, hero comp, hard stats, whatever... if you can memorize how to counter different race and it's setup, you won't lose any time thinking about it during game, and that's how W3 is beeing played till this day)

And the most important thing in "advanced Counter Strike" is not memorization of levels, these levels are as simple as you can get, with around 6 official maps which are beeing played unchanged for 10 years in a row... Nor is it reflex per se, since fast response time doesn't equal precision. It's the hard aim, which equals micro in SC. And your "knowledge" of techniques and rules is the ability to read the game. It's the same for CS as for SC as for any game played on the highest level. The top gamers could allways hop from one game to another and keep their respective levels even though they've changed genres. From RTS to FPS, from FPS to MMORPG, from Fighter to RTS.

I swear it's like it's 2000 again and a few random Countards are trying to push off their noob game as taking more skill than Quake and UT. I thought we had graduated to trying to teach modern shooter fans that their games are skilless half-assed shooters.


Why isn't it? Because in UT the amount of skill you have directly plots to where you are on the scoreboard. If you suck, you will be at the bottom, if you are good at the top. In CS there is no such relation at all. I remember picking up CS in the earlier versions right off UT. I AWPed bastards left and right as soon as I learned what the AWP is. I was a force of nature, and I just sucked at CS. That would have been absolutely impossible in UT, even with instagib, you would require absolutely amazing skill at aiming and dodging to do anything.

UT2004 and Quake 3 were the last well made games where noobs weren't pampered to try to make them feel good. Though it explains why the recent shooters sell so much, the better you think you are the more likely you are to buy the game, whether it is true or not.

You've never played Counter Strike the way it was ment to be, during Clan wars, 5on5 league with skilled opponents. Every noob can take shotgun or AWP for that matter and lucky frag someone on public with 32 players playing map ment for 4. And going from one PC FPS to other is nothing to brag about. Every half decent player that is somehow good at either one of these games can pick up the other one and play at some decent level. FPS skills are transferable.

BTW UT sucks compared to Q so hard it's not even funny. Q3 is the most skill requiring FPS ever and I stand by that, but leveling UT above CS is retarded. Still the difference between these games and all the others that came after that is one hell of a gap.