MikeB said: @ WilliamWatts Direct X 11 allows for higher compression of textures without noticeable loss in quality Didn't you earlier say it's lossless? So this comment seems to suggest you indeed didn't talk about lossless compression.

In this context lossless means not particularly noticeable for the human eye. Uncompressed textures are like uncompressed video, they cannot be read fast enough off a blu ray disc.

MikeB said: @ WilliamWath Its something which is pretty obvious (at least to me) because of the fact that its a pretty common technique for games which have a static time of day and general lightsources. Not to me... "For example, using the High Dynamic Range Lighting (HDRL) technology, the camera - when using Krato's sightline - will emulate the human retina, causing players to feel a sharp brightness when Kratos exits a dark area and enters a sunlit area, similar to how the human eye would need to adjust." Uncharted 2 features the best HDR I have seen on a console so far, Santa Monica is sharing the same building with Naughty Dog and they work together I believe God of War 3's approach on lighting will likely be equally advanced.

The HDR on Uncharted 2 is a good fake. The closest thing to a full HDR pipeline is Halo 3.

WilliamWatts said: MikeB said: @ WilliamWath Its something which is pretty obvious (at least to me) because of the fact that its a pretty common technique for games which have a static time of day and general lightsources. Not to me... "For example, using the High Dynamic Range Lighting (HDRL) technology, the camera - when using Krato's sightline - will emulate the human retina, causing players to feel a sharp brightness when Kratos exits a dark area and enters a sunlit area, similar to how the human eye would need to adjust." Uncharted 2 features the best HDR I have seen on a console so far, Santa Monica is sharing the same building with Naughty Dog and they work together I believe God of War 3's approach on lighting will likely be equally advanced. The HDR on Uncharted 2 is a good fake. The closest thing to a full HDR pipeline is Halo 3.

if you mean just using the GPU alone, and not say for instance not including the Cell processor being able to do the full HDR pipe for the RSX than yes.

here is a test with tone mapping done on the cell.

gv2.cs.tcd.ie/egirl09/papers/08.pdf

@ WilliamWatts

It's true HDR in Uncharted 2, unlike for most 360 exclusives (FP16 vs FP10). Actually Halo 3 is an exception using an unorthodox method which sacrfices resolution and "free" anti-aliasing on the 360. Actually the general lighting in Halo 3 isn't really that impressive as for example light sources don't cast realtime shadows. I am not saying the game per se needs this, as the game is very cartoony.

Also I didn't notice realtime weather changes like you mentioned above in Halo 3.

MikeB said: @ WilliamWatts The HDR on Uncharted 2 is a good fake. The closest thing to a full HDR pipeline is Halo 3. It's true HDR in Uncharted 2, unlike for most 360 exclusives (FP16 vs FP10). Actually Halo 3 is an exception using an unorthodox method which sacrfices resolution and "free" anti-aliasing on the 360. Actually the general lighting in Halo 3 isn't really that impressive as for example light sources don't cast realtime shadows. I am not saying the game per se needs this, as the game is very cartoony. Also I didn't notice realtime weather changes like you mentioned above in Halo 3.

Real HDR is FP32. besides if their lighting engine was all dynamic they wouldn't have had static TOD for every scene. Just because you consider Halo 3 'less impressive' its still closer to optimal than Uncharted 2 its just used badly.

WilliamWatts said: MikeB said: @ WilliamWatts The HDR on Uncharted 2 is a good fake. The closest thing to a full HDR pipeline is Halo 3. It's true HDR in Uncharted 2, unlike for most 360 exclusives (FP16 vs FP10). Actually Halo 3 is an exception using an unorthodox method which sacrfices resolution and "free" anti-aliasing on the 360. Actually the general lighting in Halo 3 isn't really that impressive as for example light sources don't cast realtime shadows. I am not saying the game per se needs this, as the game is very cartoony. Also I didn't notice realtime weather changes like you mentioned above in Halo 3. Real HDR is FP32. besides if their lighting engine was all dynamic they wouldn't have had static TOD for every scene. Just because you consider Halo 3 'less impressive' its still closer to optimal than Uncharted 2 its just used badly.

also I think that has more to do with the amount of time developer's have had with the PS3 more than anything else, for some just learning the system add in the fact there was no custome game Engine's outside of Sony built for the cell processor, and a couple other's that were ready to go to used on the ps3'S Cell were made as something to get you started on for 3rd party.

the first [party} an 2nd {party}  was only at the time who had most likely any real on hand's experience with the hardware :

that was jul 2005

Kutaragi surprised the crowd by revealing that, to date, only 450 PS3 dev kits have been shipped worldwide. Sony plans to release an additional 200 units in August and 300 more in September, but most developers probably will have to wait until October, when the company will ramp up its production to 3,000 units per month. For the time being though, Kutaragi admitted that the current shortage is a problem. "We've been getting a lot of requests from developers since E3 that they want more development kits for the PS3," he said. "The demand for the kits has gone beyond what we can handle. We've been discussing what we can do about it.

so you can see many developer's "outside" of SONY  had to start from scratch,  and even still there have been many developer's 3rd party decided to give it a go.

even with this learning curve.

joeorc said: also I think that has more to do with the amount of time developer's have had with the PS3 more than anything else, for some just learning the system add in the fact there was no custome game Engine's outside of Sony built for the cell processor, and a couple other's that were ready to go to used on the ps3'S Cell were made as something to get you started on for 3rd party. the first [party} an 2nd {party}  was only at the time who had most likely any real on hand's experience with the hardware : that was jul 2005 Kutaragi surprised the crowd by revealing that, to date, only 450 PS3 dev kits have been shipped worldwide. Sony plans to release an additional 200 units in August and 300 more in September, but most developers probably will have to wait until October, when the company will ramp up its production to 3,000 units per month. For the time being though, Kutaragi admitted that the current shortage is a problem. "We've been getting a lot of requests from developers since E3 that they want more development kits for the PS3," he said. "The demand for the kits has gone beyond what we can handle. We've been discussing what we can do about it. so you can see many developer's "outside" of SONY  had to start from scratch,  and even still there have been many developer's 3rd party decided to give it a go. even with this learning curve.

Metal Gear Solid engine? That was built for the system. They had some of the earliest developer hardware prototypes. Also Sony actually had developer kits out only fractionally after the Xbox 360 kits. They were effectively at a level playing field. Its the quality of said early kits which made the difference.

WilliamWatts said: joeorc said: also I think that has more to do with the amount of time developer's have had with the PS3 more than anything else, for some just learning the system add in the fact there was no custome game Engine's outside of Sony built for the cell processor, and a couple other's that were ready to go to used on the ps3'S Cell were made as something to get you started on for 3rd party. the first [party} an 2nd {party}  was only at the time who had most likely any real on hand's experience with the hardware : that was jul 2005 Kutaragi surprised the crowd by revealing that, to date, only 450 PS3 dev kits have been shipped worldwide. Sony plans to release an additional 200 units in August and 300 more in September, but most developers probably will have to wait until October, when the company will ramp up its production to 3,000 units per month. For the time being though, Kutaragi admitted that the current shortage is a problem. "We've been getting a lot of requests from developers since E3 that they want more development kits for the PS3," he said. "The demand for the kits has gone beyond what we can handle. We've been discussing what we can do about it. so you can see many developer's "outside" of SONY  had to start from scratch,  and even still there have been many developer's 3rd party decided to give it a go. even with this learning curve. Metal Gear Solid engine? That was built for the system. They had some of the earliest developer hardware prototypes. Also Sony actually had developer kits out only fractionally after the Xbox 360 kits. They were effectively at a level playing field. Its the quality of said early kits which made the difference.

 

yes there is indeed a metal gear solid engine. kojima even showed it off.

no they were not at a level playing field. because when was all of the xbox360 development kit's released?

way before the ps3 kit's and to top it off when were G5's released?

jun 24 2003!

 

The XBox 360 is the heir to the original XBox, and will be the first next gen console to market with a release date before this Christmas. The 360 will be a scaled-down computer just like its predecessor, but will have a multicore PowerPC architecture instead of a single x86 processor. Therefore the beta development kits for the Microsoft console are not Windows machines at all, but Apple G5s!

Along with the release of the 360, Microsoft is launching a new game development platform called,  XNA, headed by J Allard. Essentially XNA is a version of Visual Studio 2005 Team Edition that is specialized for game development on a variety of platforms, including the XBox 360. Microsoft believes that high definition support is a big deal for the next generation of consoles, and supposedly XNA will help reduce the cost of producing HD games. Apparently XNA is billed as a complete solution, providing tool support for the entire game development process. The platform is due for release early next year.

REMEMBER THAT'S 2003 2 YEAR'S PRIOR TO THE FIRST PLAYSTATION 3 DEVELOPMENT KIT'S

there is quite a lead on developer skill with many developer's that have had pretty good experience with G5's add in the fact that the tool's related to XNA built for the G5's

was still less of a problem for developer's because again many have had experience before with these tool's

now

look at what it was like for the PS3 development kit's and the fresh start quite a number of DEVELOPER'S had to start out with.

it is no way near the level playing field that is for sure.

example:

there is two people who are taking a course in school, both have the same computer course but say as an experiment the prof. gives one of them another test but your only allowed 24 hours to study before you have to take it and the extra part's were only just handed to you the previous day where as the other guy is taking the test with stuf you have had all year, none of the extra stuff the other guy just got.

joeorc said: WilliamWatts said: joeorc said: also I think that has more to do with the amount of time developer's have had with the PS3 more than anything else, for some just learning the system add in the fact there was no custome game Engine's outside of Sony built for the cell processor, and a couple other's that were ready to go to used on the ps3'S Cell were made as something to get you started on for 3rd party. the first [party} an 2nd {party}  was only at the time who had most likely any real on hand's experience with the hardware : that was jul 2005 Kutaragi surprised the crowd by revealing that, to date, only 450 PS3 dev kits have been shipped worldwide. Sony plans to release an additional 200 units in August and 300 more in September, but most developers probably will have to wait until October, when the company will ramp up its production to 3,000 units per month. For the time being though, Kutaragi admitted that the current shortage is a problem. "We've been getting a lot of requests from developers since E3 that they want more development kits for the PS3," he said. "The demand for the kits has gone beyond what we can handle. We've been discussing what we can do about it. so you can see many developer's "outside" of SONY  had to start from scratch,  and even still there have been many developer's 3rd party decided to give it a go. even with this learning curve. Metal Gear Solid engine? That was built for the system. They had some of the earliest developer hardware prototypes. Also Sony actually had developer kits out only fractionally after the Xbox 360 kits. They were effectively at a level playing field. Its the quality of said early kits which made the difference.   yes there is indeed a metal gear solid engine. kojima even showed it off. no they were not at a level playing field. because when was all of the xbox360 development kit's released? way before the ps3 kit's and to top it off when were G5's released? jun 24 2003!   The XBox 360 is the heir to the original XBox, and will be the first next gen console to market with a release date before this Christmas. The 360 will be a scaled-down computer just like its predecessor, but will have a multicore PowerPC architecture instead of a single x86 processor. Therefore the beta development kits for the Microsoft console are not Windows machines at all, but Apple G5s! Along with the release of the 360, Microsoft is launching a new game development platform called,  XNA, headed by J Allard. Essentially XNA is a version of Visual Studio 2005 Team Edition that is specialized for game development on a variety of platforms, including the XBox 360. Microsoft believes that high definition support is a big deal for the next generation of consoles, and supposedly XNA will help reduce the cost of producing HD games. Apparently XNA is billed as a complete solution, providing tool support for the entire game development process. The platform is due for release early next year. REMEMBER THAT'S 2003 2 YEAR'S PRIOR TO THE FIRST PLAYSTATION 3 DEVELOPMENT KIT'S there is quite a lead on developer skill with many developer's that have had pretty good experience with G5's add in the fact that the tool's related to XNA built for the G5's was still less of a problem for developer's because again many have had experience before with these tool's now look at what it was like for the PS3 development kit's and the fresh start quite a number of DEVELOPER'S had to start out with. it is no way near the level playing field that is for sure. example: there is two people who are taking a course in school, both have the same computer course but say as an experiment the prof. gives one of them another test but your only allowed 24 hours to study before you have to take it and the extra part's were only just handed to you the previous day where as the other guy is taking the test with stuf you have had all year, none of the extra stuff the other guy just got.

Sony had kits out at least in early 2005. They had samples of the hardware quite a bit earlier than the release of the PS3. The early Xbox 360 kits had less to do with the final hardware, they didn't have unified shaders they didn't share the full instruction set and nor did they have ED-Ram so they were effectively an early target. The official full spec kits were out about the same time for both systems and the PS3 had an advantage in that developers were already familiar with the Cells instruction set for the SPEs as they shared a common base with the PS2.

But I would say the distribution of early development kits for the PS3 had more to do with Sony wanting to give their developers an early lead and it 'dominate' the system than a lack of availability. Its typical Japanese console maker MO. So its not like they couldn't have gotten more dev kits out sooner they just saw it as advantagous for them to get a lead over the rest of the field because they saw technology as the key to high selling games. Too bad they were wrong, but thats what they thought.

WilliamWatts said: joeorc said: WilliamWatts said: joeorc said: also I think that has more to do with the amount of time developer's have had with the PS3 more than anything else, for some just learning the system add in the fact there was no custome game Engine's outside of Sony built for the cell processor, and a couple other's that were ready to go to used on the ps3'S Cell were made as something to get you started on for 3rd party. the first [party} an 2nd {party}  was only at the time who had most likely any real on hand's experience with the hardware : that was jul 2005 Kutaragi surprised the crowd by revealing that, to date, only 450 PS3 dev kits have been shipped worldwide. Sony plans to release an additional 200 units in August and 300 more in September, but most developers probably will have to wait until October, when the company will ramp up its production to 3,000 units per month. For the time being though, Kutaragi admitted that the current shortage is a problem. "We've been getting a lot of requests from developers since E3 that they want more development kits for the PS3," he said. "The demand for the kits has gone beyond what we can handle. We've been discussing what we can do about it. so you can see many developer's "outside" of SONY  had to start from scratch,  and even still there have been many developer's 3rd party decided to give it a go. even with this learning curve. Metal Gear Solid engine? That was built for the system. They had some of the earliest developer hardware prototypes. Also Sony actually had developer kits out only fractionally after the Xbox 360 kits. They were effectively at a level playing field. Its the quality of said early kits which made the difference.   yes there is indeed a metal gear solid engine. kojima even showed it off. no they were not at a level playing field. because when was all of the xbox360 development kit's released? way before the ps3 kit's and to top it off when were G5's released? jun 24 2003!   The XBox 360 is the heir to the original XBox, and will be the first next gen console to market with a release date before this Christmas. The 360 will be a scaled-down computer just like its predecessor, but will have a multicore PowerPC architecture instead of a single x86 processor. Therefore the beta development kits for the Microsoft console are not Windows machines at all, but Apple G5s! Along with the release of the 360, Microsoft is launching a new game development platform called,  XNA, headed by J Allard. Essentially XNA is a version of Visual Studio 2005 Team Edition that is specialized for game development on a variety of platforms, including the XBox 360. Microsoft believes that high definition support is a big deal for the next generation of consoles, and supposedly XNA will help reduce the cost of producing HD games. Apparently XNA is billed as a complete solution, providing tool support for the entire game development process. The platform is due for release early next year. REMEMBER THAT'S 2003 2 YEAR'S PRIOR TO THE FIRST PLAYSTATION 3 DEVELOPMENT KIT'S there is quite a lead on developer skill with many developer's that have had pretty good experience with G5's add in the fact that the tool's related to XNA built for the G5's was still less of a problem for developer's because again many have had experience before with these tool's now look at what it was like for the PS3 development kit's and the fresh start quite a number of DEVELOPER'S had to start out with. it is no way near the level playing field that is for sure. example: there is two people who are taking a course in school, both have the same computer course but say as an experiment the prof. gives one of them another test but your only allowed 24 hours to study before you have to take it and the extra part's were only just handed to you the previous day where as the other guy is taking the test with stuf you have had all year, none of the extra stuff the other guy just got. Sony had kits out at least in early 2005. They had samples of the hardware quite a bit earlier than the release of the PS3. The early Xbox 360 kits had less to do with the final hardware, they didn't have unified shaders they didn't share the full instruction set and nor did they have ED-Ram so they were effectively an early target. The official full spec kits were out about the same time for both systems and the PS3 had an advantage in that developers were already familiar with the Cells instruction set for the SPEs as they shared a common base with the PS2. But I would say the distribution of early development kits for the PS3 had more to do with Sony wanting to give their developers an early lead and it 'dominate' the system than a lack of availability. Its typical Japanese console maker MO. So its not like they couldn't have gotten more dev kits out sooner they just saw it as advantagous for them to get a lead over the rest of the field because they saw technology as the key to high selling games. Too bad they were wrong, but thats what they thought.

not as many of them as you think!

I am going to disagree with you on the playing field because even though Sony themselves had kit's early 2005, Insomniac game's as an example had to help other developer's even inside Sony to help with the learning cureve, unlike THE majority of developer's for the xbox360 because the G5 was already out 2 year's prior to even one of thes kit's of the PS3 hitting the development community outside of Sony. there is a big difference between not having any experience with an hardware design at all and not having the most uptodate hardware that still did not stop the xbox360 development community from development, because even though these were beta the developer's had more experience with the hardware due to the fact that the very basic development kit was a G5, many artist's have already experience with G4's before the G5's so. that right there is a very big advantage, 2 year's experience with the base core hardware instead with the PS3 none was outside of Sony even had the experience with the Cell processor because hell the Cell was only first released to the public at  what year?

2004!

when was the first prototype?

feb 2005!

"The processor shown Monday was only a prototype, and it's likely that the high-volume shipments of the processor will come when the three companies are ready to make chips using a 65-nanometer processing technology, Glaskowsky said. That technology will allow the companies to shrink the chip and reduce their manufacturing costs,"

http://www.pcworld.com/article/119602/ibm_sony_toshiba_unveil_ninecore_cell_processor.html

and only 450 kits were released not because Sony was holding back it was because of the cell processor yields