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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - The Industry being stubborn

Carl2291 said:
Fine, here you go. Backup. 2D Mario from SNES.

http://www.gamerankings.com/snes/519824-super-mario-world/index.html
http://www.gamerankings.com/snes/588740-super-mario-world-2-yoshis-island/index.html

2D mario from Wii.

http://www.gamerankings.com/wii/960544-new-super-mario-bros-wii/index.html

Haha, that's funny, and if you want me to shutup and stop pointing out some hard truths and turning the mirror back at you, you'll have to do better than that kiddo. Nobody uses gamerankings or metacritic for anything pre PS2 era because there are literally just a handfull of reviews available for each game what with the internet only really taking over in that era, before that everything was magazine based, hell, metacritic don't even bother having sections pre N64/PS1 because the review samples are so small (e.g. the N64 only has 89 of it's games with enough reviews to be listed on metacritic). To back that up with actual fact, the two SNES games have 8 reviews between them. NSMBWii has over six times as many on it's own on gamerankings, and almost ten times as many on metacritic. There could be some 8/10 reviews for the two SNES games in defunct magazines stuck at the bottom of a box in somebodies dusty attic that have never been uploaded, but we don't know that.

It's kind of like saying that FFXIII has a decent metascore now when there are some pretty mediocre reviews waiting to be uploaded... You know, the ones they felt the need to defend the game against...

 



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milkyjoe said:
Carl2291 said:
Fine, here you go. Backup. 2D Mario from SNES.

http://www.gamerankings.com/snes/519824-super-mario-world/index.html
http://www.gamerankings.com/snes/588740-super-mario-world-2-yoshis-island/index.html

2D mario from Wii.

http://www.gamerankings.com/wii/960544-new-super-mario-bros-wii/index.html

Haha, that's funny, and if you want me to shutup and stop pointing out some hard truths and turning the mirror back at you, you'll have to do better than that kiddo. Nobody uses gamerankings or metacritic for anything pre PS2 era because there are literally just a handfull of reviews available for each game what with the internet only really taking over in that era, before that everything was magazine based, hell, metacritic don't even bother having sections pre N64/PS1 because the review samples are so small (e.g. the N64 only has 89 of it's games with enough reviews to be listed on metacritic). To back that up with actual fact, the two SNES games have 8 reviews between them. NSMBWii has over six times as many on it's own on gamerankings, and almost ten times as many on metacritic. There could be some 8/10 reviews for the two SNES games in defunct magazines stuck at the bottom of a box in somebodies dusty attic that have never been uploaded, but we don't know that.

It's kind of like saying that FFXIII has a decent metascore now when there are some pretty mediocre reviews waiting to be uploaded... You know, the ones they felt the need to defend the game against...

Turning the mirror back at me? You were the one who brought FF quality dropping, then pointing at reviews, kiddo.

The fact is, when Nintendo have created something new and successful this gen, 3rd parties have followed. Wii Sports brought us a fuck load of sports games using the Wiimote. Wii Fit has now brought a load of Fitness games to Wii.

If you want new big games on Wii, complain to Nintendo. Get them to change the marketting of the machine or create some new "Core" franchises.



                            

RolStoppable said:
Carl2291 said:

Turning the mirror back at me? You were the one who brought FF quality dropping, then pointing at reviews, kiddo.

The fact is, when Nintendo have created something new and successful this gen, 3rd parties have followed. Wii Sports brought us a fuck load of sports games using the Wiimote. Wii Fit has now brought a load of Fitness games to Wii.

If you want new big games on Wii, complain to Nintendo. Get them to change the marketting of the machine or create some new "Core" franchises.

Carl, are you serious?

The reason why third parties made Wii Sports and Wii Fit clones is because they saw easy money. Cheap to produce games with a high profit margin. Of course the market eventually realized that the quality of those games is subpar which is why sales for these games got worse and worse over time and third parties are complaining that the casual bubble has burst.

But more importantly, what's up with this qualifier you had to put in your post?

"Nintendo has to create new "core" franchises, if you want new big games on Wii."

Usually when someone uses such a qualifier it's because his argument doesn't hold much water. This qualifier eliminates games like Twilight Princess, Super Mario Galaxy and Super Smash Brawl. What you are saying is that there's no reason for third parties to create games like that, because those franchises aren't new. There's no market for such games on the Wii, despite all of those games selling more than five million copies. In the same way, you could argue that there's no market for a game like Resident Evil 4, because it's not a new "core" franchise. I refuse to believe that you are that stupid.

The Wii has the biggest userbase. The Wii sells the most third party software. The Wii has the lowest development costs of the three current generation consoles. The number of genres that have already succeeded on the Wii is bigger than on any other current generation console.

But of course this isn't enough and Nintendo has to do much more. Logically, there's only one thing that Nintendo can do and that is to moneyhat each and every game. I find this stance of third parties quite arrogant, to be honest.

There is a lot there, so have some colour.

Red - They sold well, and gave 3rd parties an idea of what sells on Wii. Thus they followed suit. I think if Nintendo did the same with for example, a 3rd person shooter. And it sold what... 5mil +, you would see a lot more TPS on Wii. Same for FPS games, or whatever.

Orange - It mainly goes back to my point on advertising. While Zelda, SMG and Smash Bros are big core franchises, we have had 3 of them this gen, and one of them was in 2006. You could also say Metroid, but we have had... One new Metroid game released back in 07, and a re-release. Since Brawl we have had nothing but "casual" stuff from Nintendo. This means Ninty have been marketting it for that specific audience for 2 years. Animal Crossing, Wii Music, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Fit Plus, NSMB Wii are not games that cater to the "core" audience. You could possibly argue Mario, but with the way it was advertised it's not exactly going to draw in the core crowd. 

2010 is looking different with SMG2, Zelda and Metroid all hitting in the same year. Ninty are also putting themselves behind Monster Hunter. Maybe they can influence some more core games on Wii, but i'm not expecting much.

Blue - Instead of making more new franchises themselves, why don't they? They can easily afford it. Why don't they pay Square to make a new Final Fantasy on Wii? Or Activision to give Wii it's own Call of Duty? Capcom for Res Evil 5 + 6? Sony/MS are willing to do it, why aren't Nintendo, who are in a much better position?



                            

Just to prove my point on ad's, here are 4 i just found in a quick Youtube search.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltLe1r2qUxQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acOHSDRN9_o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go0fa4j-c2U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAijoYh3F7s

When the console is advertised like this, it's pretty obvious which gamers are going to be primarily on Wii. Thus, it's pretty obvious which gamers the 3rd parties will put the majority of resources towards.

Edit: I posted the same one twice... Stupid. But the point still stands.



                            

Carl, so you're saying core gamers that might be interested by the game, they lost interest after watching the advertising? C'mon that's not true, a core gamer knows what's this game about and don't care of advertising or reviews. If he likes platformers knows very well what's Mario 2D about.

The advertising was clearly for the expanded audience, but the game isn't just for them.



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Soma said:
Carl, so you're saying core gamers that might be interested by the game, they lost interest after watching the advertising? C'mon that's not true, a core gamer knows what's this game about and don't care of advertising or reviews. If he likes platformers knows very well what's Mario 2D about.

The advertising was clearly for the expanded audience, but the game isn't just for them.

No, i'm saying the advertising brings in the whole bunch of "casual" gamers to the Wii. Nintendo are currently marketting the machine to that specific group, and have been for as long as i can remember. This means 3rd parties will focus mainly on that group. Thus, the games targetted at them have been selling really well since the Wii launched. As of right now, i point you towards games like Just Dance, EA Sports Active, The Biggest Loser, Walk It Out.



                            

The problem is not Mario being a casual game or not, the problem is developers thinking, casual game = crappy quality low budget game, and thats not true, a casual game is a game created and advertised with the purpose of creating interest in a not so game friendly market, and thats the point of the ad, the ads are saying "Hey, you can play too" and that is the key of wii succes, not Mario, not fitting games, and above all not the controller gimmick



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Carl2291 said:

There is a lot there, so have some colour.

Red - They sold well, and gave 3rd parties an idea of what sells on Wii. Thus they followed suit. I think if Nintendo did the same with for example, a 3rd person shooter. And it sold what... 5mil +, you would see a lot more TPS on Wii. Same for FPS games, or whatever.

Orange - It mainly goes back to my point on advertising. While Zelda, SMG and Smash Bros are big core franchises, we have had 3 of them this gen, and one of them was in 2006. You could also say Metroid, but we have had... One new Metroid game released back in 07, and a re-release. Since Brawl we have had nothing but "casual" stuff from Nintendo. This means Ninty have been marketting it for that specific audience for 2 years. Animal Crossing, Wii Music, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Fit Plus, NSMB Wii are not games that cater to the "core" audience. You could possibly argue Mario, but with the way it was advertised it's not exactly going to draw in the core crowd. 

2010 is looking different with SMG2, Zelda and Metroid all hitting in the same year. Ninty are also putting themselves behind Monster Hunter. Maybe they can influence some more core games on Wii, but i'm not expecting much.

Blue - Instead of making more new franchises themselves, why don't they? They can easily afford it. Why don't they pay Square to make a new Final Fantasy on Wii? Or Activision to give Wii it's own Call of Duty? Capcom for Res Evil 5 + 6? Sony/MS are willing to do it, why aren't Nintendo, who are in a much better position?

Red - Third parties are incompetent and unable to think for themselves confirmed? It's not like MS or Sony have had to cover every genre on their consoles, so why should Nintendo? Third parties did their very best to create audiences for themselves on the other consoles, so do they suddenly become handicapped in everything they do on the Wii? That is very unfair.

Blue - Moneyhatting third parties is not how the industry should work in the first place. Third parties should feel privileged that the hardware companies took a risk far greater than they have ever taken to produce an install base for them.



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Carl2291 said:
Soma said:
Carl, so you're saying core gamers that might be interested by the game, they lost interest after watching the advertising? C'mon that's not true, a core gamer knows what's this game about and don't care of advertising or reviews. If he likes platformers knows very well what's Mario 2D about.

The advertising was clearly for the expanded audience, but the game isn't just for them.

No, i'm saying the advertising brings in the whole bunch of "casual" gamers to the Wii. Nintendo are currently marketting the machine to that specific group, and have been for as long as i can remember. This means 3rd parties will focus mainly on that group. Thus, the games targetted at them have been selling really well since the Wii launched. As of right now, i point you towards games like Just Dance, EA Sports Active, The Biggest Loser, Walk It Out.

 

Yes, Nintendo advertising is targeting new or uninterested gamers, because they are more difficult to convince in buying your game. Core gamers already know what they want or what the game's about. I agree that advertising more of their core games would be great. Of those games you mentioned, well aparently they are quality games, not shovelware. There are more Wii sports / Wii Fit wanna be clones that failed because of the quality.

In fact, I'm reading reviews in Amazon for Walk It Out, and I'm surprised how well this game has been received. Out of 72 reviews, 67 people gave the game 4 stars or more.



Castlevania Judgment FC:     1161 - 3389 - 1512

3DS Friend Code:   3480-2746-6289


Wii Friend Code: 4268-9719-1932-3069

RolStoppable said:
Carl2291 said:

There is a lot there, so have some colour.

Red - They sold well, and gave 3rd parties an idea of what sells on Wii. Thus they followed suit. I think if Nintendo did the same with for example, a 3rd person shooter. And it sold what... 5mil +, you would see a lot more TPS on Wii. Same for FPS games, or whatever.

Orange - It mainly goes back to my point on advertising. While Zelda, SMG and Smash Bros are big core franchises, we have had 3 of them this gen, and one of them was in 2006. You could also say Metroid, but we have had... One new Metroid game released back in 07, and a re-release. Since Brawl we have had nothing but "casual" stuff from Nintendo. This means Ninty have been marketting it for that specific audience for 2 years. Animal Crossing, Wii Music, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Fit Plus, NSMB Wii are not games that cater to the "core" audience. You could possibly argue Mario, but with the way it was advertised it's not exactly going to draw in the core crowd. 

2010 is looking different with SMG2, Zelda and Metroid all hitting in the same year. Ninty are also putting themselves behind Monster Hunter. Maybe they can influence some more core games on Wii, but i'm not expecting much.

Blue - Instead of making more new franchises themselves, why don't they? They can easily afford it. Why don't they pay Square to make a new Final Fantasy on Wii? Or Activision to give Wii it's own Call of Duty? Capcom for Res Evil 5 + 6? Sony/MS are willing to do it, why aren't Nintendo, who are in a much better position?

Red - I got this point covered already. There were no new games like Zelda or Super Mario Galaxy, despite the audience for large scale action-adventures and 3D platformers being there. The reason being that third parties don't want to invest in the Wii and rather go with their third and fourth string teams. If Nintendo made a TPS that sold 5+m, third parties would shrug and say "well, it's a Nintendo game" and put out more casual stuff.

Orange -

No, really. Do you actually believe what you have written? NSMB Wii doesn't cater to the "core" audience? You honestly think that the "core" audience would hold off of buying good games because of the way the console itself or the games are advertised?

And why would SMG2, Zelda and Metroid encourage third parties to make more core games? The Wii already had those games in one form or another, but now, two years after they have all been released, where are all these third party core games that were supposed to come out? The easiest answer is often the right one: Third parties don't want to make these games.

Blue - This isn't a problem that can be fixed by throwing money at it. Talent is rare in this business, so there are only so many games that can be made at the same time. Paying off third parties isn't really going to help either, because all their most talented developers are already working on 360/PS3 games.

Why isn't Nintendo willing to do it? Well, did you ever look at the sales charts? There's no need to act desperately and as I have previously said, it shouldn't be required to moneyhat third parties for every single game. The Wii offers a good environment for third parties to succeed (highest software sales, lowest development costs, biggest userbase), it's just that for some reason they don't want to try.

What that reason is? Third parties want to be in the driver's seat of this industry. They want to be the ones who decide about the fate of video game machines. If that is the case, then console manufacturers will fight over them and pay for exclusivity or fund entire games. Their ideal world is Sony and Microsoft having about even shares of the market (with Nintendo being a minor player, because they are evil and refuse to moneyhat like the other two), because if one would become too successful, there wouldn't be much reason to pay off third parties.

Now of course things developed differently compared to what was expected by the industry. Nintendo became the dominant player and that is the nightmare scenario for third parties. Nintendo is good to go alone, they don't have to rely on third parties like Sony and Microsoft. In case third parties would fully back the Wii, Nintendo would only become more dominant which is exactly what they don't want. So they decided to fight Nintendo with all they've got. Pretty much all major games go to the HD consoles, but not the Wii. They come up with reasons why the games aren't coming to the Wii, but over time those reasons became more and more questionable. Low software sales? Games get ported for the PSP, not the Wii. The Wii hardware isn't capable of running the game? But no problem to bring the game to the PSP or lately, also the iPhone.

Red - I don't think that would happen. But hey, opinions vary.

Orange - Nah, i don't mean that. Mario appeals to everyone. What i mean is the advertising for it brings a certain gamer to the machine. Then the 3rd parties cater to that said gamer. It's easy money.

Maybe they don't want to. Maybe they are happy with what they have on PS360. But if there are any 3 games that Ninty could do this year to persuade them onto Wii, those are the 3 games. If Zelda suddenly hits with the casual crowd and sees, for example, 10m+ sales. It could lead to a bunch of original new adventure games on Wii.

Blue - I think it is, with the money Nintendo have. And who's to say that they can't make Wii games after they have finished current projects? We all know the Wii software is selling like crazy, but it's not the core software that's lighting up the charts every week. That's the problem. The 3rd parties are catering to the market's that DO light up the charts. Your fitness games, kids games and party games.

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