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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - The Industry being stubborn

Soma said:
Carl2291 said:
Soma said:
Carl, so you're saying core gamers that might be interested by the game, they lost interest after watching the advertising? C'mon that's not true, a core gamer knows what's this game about and don't care of advertising or reviews. If he likes platformers knows very well what's Mario 2D about.

The advertising was clearly for the expanded audience, but the game isn't just for them.

No, i'm saying the advertising brings in the whole bunch of "casual" gamers to the Wii. Nintendo are currently marketting the machine to that specific group, and have been for as long as i can remember. This means 3rd parties will focus mainly on that group. Thus, the games targetted at them have been selling really well since the Wii launched. As of right now, i point you towards games like Just Dance, EA Sports Active, The Biggest Loser, Walk It Out.

Yes, Nintendo advertising is targeting new or uninterested gamers, because they are more difficult to convince in buying your game. Core gamers already know what they want or what the game's about. I agree that advertising more of their core games would be great. Of those games you mentioned, well aparently they are quality games, not shovelware. There are more Wii sports / Wii Fit wanna be clones that failed because of the quality.

In fact, I'm reading reviews in Amazon for Walk It Out, and I'm surprised how well this game has been received. Out of 72 reviews, 67 people gave the game 4 stars or more.

They are quality games in the genre they are in, yes. I never called any of them shovelware, by the way (at least i don't think i did). But the point is, those genre's don't appeal to the same audience that buys Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Resident Evil, Etc.



                            

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RolStoppable said:
Carl2291 said:
Soma said:
Carl, so you're saying core gamers that might be interested by the game, they lost interest after watching the advertising? C'mon that's not true, a core gamer knows what's this game about and don't care of advertising or reviews. If he likes platformers knows very well what's Mario 2D about.

The advertising was clearly for the expanded audience, but the game isn't just for them.

No, i'm saying the advertising brings in the whole bunch of "casual" gamers to the Wii. Nintendo are currently marketting the machine to that specific group, and have been for as long as i can remember. This means 3rd parties will focus mainly on that group. Thus, the games targetted at them have been selling really well since the Wii launched. As of right now, i point you towards games like Just Dance, EA Sports Active, The Biggest Loser, Walk It Out.

Since you are so proud of this point, I should confront you with an interesting thought:

The way the DS is advertised is very similar to the Wii. But for some reason the DS gets flooded with core games by third parties, including genres that had no Nintendo precedent of having an audience. And those games sell well, otherwise they would stop being made. So what makes the Wii so different from the DS?

It's all the Western third parties. They don't mind Nintendo being the dominant player in the portable market since historically they never really bothered with handheld games and they still don't really do. If you made a list of the 100 best handheld games made in the past 20 years, the vast majority would come from Japan, because Japanese third parties don't see portables as second rate gaming machines.

Home consoles are a different story. That is where the blockbusters go and so far, no Western third party has made a AAA game for the Wii. Japanese third parties don't seem to be so much anti-Nintendo, but most of them prefer the HD consoles because they want to be like Western third party publishers. You can get that from interviews where Japanese developers state that the Japanese gaming industry has fallen behind its Western counterparts (while ironically it's a Japanese company, Nintendo, that rules the worldwide sales charts).

Because the PSP is to be fair, rubbish for software sales, only has 30% of the market and is filled to the brim with piracy. DS is the best alternative out of the 2 despite piracy also being big on DS.

Wheras if you look at Wii, it has 2 direct competitors that are seen as one because of how similar they are. They both collectively have greater marketshare and also have much less piracy than PSP.

I think if the Wii had 70%+ marketshare right now we would be seeing the same thing as what happens with DS and PSP.



                            

RolStoppable said:
Carl2291 said:
RolStoppable said:

Red - I got this point covered already. There were no new games like Zelda or Super Mario Galaxy, despite the audience for large scale action-adventures and 3D platformers being there. The reason being that third parties don't want to invest in the Wii and rather go with their third and fourth string teams. If Nintendo made a TPS that sold 5+m, third parties would shrug and say "well, it's a Nintendo game" and put out more casual stuff.

Orange -

No, really. Do you actually believe what you have written? NSMB Wii doesn't cater to the "core" audience? You honestly think that the "core" audience would hold off of buying good games because of the way the console itself or the games are advertised?

And why would SMG2, Zelda and Metroid encourage third parties to make more core games? The Wii already had those games in one form or another, but now, two years after they have all been released, where are all these third party core games that were supposed to come out? The easiest answer is often the right one: Third parties don't want to make these games.

Blue - This isn't a problem that can be fixed by throwing money at it. Talent is rare in this business, so there are only so many games that can be made at the same time. Paying off third parties isn't really going to help either, because all their most talented developers are already working on 360/PS3 games.

Why isn't Nintendo willing to do it? Well, did you ever look at the sales charts? There's no need to act desperately and as I have previously said, it shouldn't be required to moneyhat third parties for every single game. The Wii offers a good environment for third parties to succeed (highest software sales, lowest development costs, biggest userbase), it's just that for some reason they don't want to try.

What that reason is? Third parties want to be in the driver's seat of this industry. They want to be the ones who decide about the fate of video game machines. If that is the case, then console manufacturers will fight over them and pay for exclusivity or fund entire games. Their ideal world is Sony and Microsoft having about even shares of the market (with Nintendo being a minor player, because they are evil and refuse to moneyhat like the other two), because if one would become too successful, there wouldn't be much reason to pay off third parties.

Now of course things developed differently compared to what was expected by the industry. Nintendo became the dominant player and that is the nightmare scenario for third parties. Nintendo is good to go alone, they don't have to rely on third parties like Sony and Microsoft. In case third parties would fully back the Wii, Nintendo would only become more dominant which is exactly what they don't want. So they decided to fight Nintendo with all they've got. Pretty much all major games go to the HD consoles, but not the Wii. They come up with reasons why the games aren't coming to the Wii, but over time those reasons became more and more questionable. Low software sales? Games get ported for the PSP, not the Wii. The Wii hardware isn't capable of running the game? But no problem to bring the game to the PSP or lately, also the iPhone.

Red - I don't think that would happen. But hey, opinions vary.

Orange - Nah, i don't mean that. Mario appeals to everyone. What i mean is the advertising for it brings a certain gamer to the machine. Then the 3rd parties cater to that said gamer. It's easy money.

Maybe they don't want to. Maybe they are happy with what they have on PS360. But if there are any 3 games that Ninty could do this year to persuade them onto Wii, those are the 3 games. If Zelda suddenly hits with the casual crowd and sees, for example, 10m+ sales. It could lead to a bunch of original new adventure games on Wii.

Blue - I think it is, with the money Nintendo have. And who's to say that they can't make Wii games after they have finished current projects? We all know the Wii software is selling like crazy, but it's not the core software that's lighting up the charts every week. That's the problem. The 3rd parties are catering to the market's that DO light up the charts. Your fitness games, kids games and party games.

Bold - Biggest conspiracy theory ever

What's this, Carl?

First you say Zelda has to be a core game to encourage third parties to make core games themselves. Now in this post you say that Zelda has to become a hit with the "casual crowd" in order to persuade third parties to make games like that?

Blue - See my other post. You have to explain why the Wii and DS, despite being advertised so similarly and having the same types of games lighting up the charts every week, are receiving such different third party support.

Bold - I am convinced that as time passes by, we'll get more evidence that my theory isn't just a theory.

Nah, i'm saying it could help. Not that it has to happen.

Blue - http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/post.php?post=3167470&page=4&postnum=22



                            

RolStoppable said:
Carl2291 said:
RolStoppable said:

Since you are so proud of this point, I should confront you with an interesting thought:

The way the DS is advertised is very similar to the Wii. But for some reason the DS gets flooded with core games by third parties, including genres that had no Nintendo precedent of having an audience. And those games sell well, otherwise they would stop being made. So what makes the Wii so different from the DS?

It's all the Western third parties. They don't mind Nintendo being the dominant player in the portable market since historically they never really bothered with handheld games and they still don't really do. If you made a list of the 100 best handheld games made in the past 20 years, the vast majority would come from Japan, because Japanese third parties don't see portables as second rate gaming machines.

Home consoles are a different story. That is where the blockbusters go and so far, no Western third party has made a AAA game for the Wii. Japanese third parties don't seem to be so much anti-Nintendo, but most of them prefer the HD consoles because they want to be like Western third party publishers. You can get that from interviews where Japanese developers state that the Japanese gaming industry has fallen behind its Western counterparts (while ironically it's a Japanese company, Nintendo, that rules the worldwide sales charts).

Because the PSP is to be fair, rubbish for software sales, only has 30% of the market and is filled to the brim with piracy. DS is the best alternative out of the 2 despite piracy also being big on DS.

Wheras if you look at Wii, it has 2 direct competitors that are seen as one because of how similar they are. They both collectively have greater marketshare and also have much less piracy than PSP.

I think if the Wii had 70%+ marketshare right now we would be seeing the same thing as what happens with DS and PSP.

That's not how it works, Carl. You assume that there is a certain pool of games that absolutely has to go to portables, so if the competition performs poorly, everything goes to the other option. That's wrong. All gaming platforms are in competition with one another when it comes to software support. For example, Dragon Quest was never supposed to become a handheld exclusive before this generation started.

You also seem to make the argument that nearly 50 % in market share in the home console space doesn't justify development of major core third party games. Is that what you are saying? It has to be, because you should want to be consistent with your previous posts.

My point is, many developers see PS3 and 360 as a unified platform. With DS and PSP it is straight up 1 vs 1. With Wii, 360 and PS3 it's slightly different because of how similar PS3 and 360 are.

50% marketshare does justify it. I never said otherwise. But if it was more of a 70-30 comparison, i think thing's would be much different.



                            

"So tell me, why are third parties not making big core games for the Wii? Some of them even fail on the HD consoles, but that doesn't stop third parties from making more for those systems (provided the studio doesn't get closed down afterwards). So it's not like a possible failure would count as a valid reason not to try."

It isn't. The PSP is less powerful than the Wii, sells even less hardware*, and developers still support it with their major franchises more.

* Nothing against the PSP, since it has several games I want when I can get the system.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

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RolStoppable said:
Carl2291 said:
RolStoppable said:

That's not how it works, Carl. You assume that there is a certain pool of games that absolutely has to go to portables, so if the competition performs poorly, everything goes to the other option. That's wrong. All gaming platforms are in competition with one another when it comes to software support. For example, Dragon Quest was never supposed to become a handheld exclusive before this generation started.

You also seem to make the argument that nearly 50 % in market share in the home console space doesn't justify development of major core third party games. Is that what you are saying? It has to be, because you should want to be consistent with your previous posts.

My point is, many developers see PS3 and 360 as a unified platform. With DS and PSP it is straight up 1 vs 1. With Wii, 360 and PS3 it's slightly different because of how similar PS3 and 360 are.

50% marketshare does justify it. I never said otherwise. But if it was more of a 70-30 comparison, i think thing's would be much different.

Full circle!

50 % market share does justify it. That's what Wii owners have been saying all along. That's when you posted your reasoning why there are no major third party games coming to the Wii. Reasons that turned out to be wrong or questionable.

So tell me, why are third parties not making big core games for the Wii? Some of them even fail on the HD consoles, but that doesn't stop third parties from making more for those systems (provided the studio doesn't get closed down afterwards). So it's not like a possible failure would count as a valid reason not to try.

Sorry for the late reply.

50% does justify it, i just don't think it justifies it enough when the other 2 are combined outselling it, are very similar to eachother, are a proven market for core games and developers already have the game engines ready and working. PS3 and 360 share the majority of 3rd party games.

I couldn't answer that one. But my guess would be this... It's simply much easier, and much more proitable for them to make some cashin sports game or party game.



                            

I don't believe the "if Nintendo does it, we will too" mantra.
Like Rol said before, there is Brawl, Galaxy, Metroid, and the only clone I have seen of any of these three titles is maybe Smash with TMNT Smash Up, but that had about 1/3 of the characters and it wasn't even exclusive (PS2 also).

The thing about EA Sports Active, The Biggest Loser, and Just Dance (JD especially) is that they were all marketed effectively. I saw plenty JD commercials and internet ads, TBL obviously is based on a popular TV show (and ads for the game run during the show) and EA Sports Active was the highest quality fitness game after Wii Fit.



Leatherhat on July 6th, 2012 3pm. Vita sales:"3 mil for COD 2 mil for AC. Maybe more. "  thehusbo on July 6th, 2012 5pm. Vita sales:"5 mil for COD 2.2 mil for AC."

LordTheNightKnight said:
RolStoppable said:
theprof00 said:
theprof00 said:
The problem with the wii games is that they generally cannot hold as much data/ cannot run the same level of graphics and gameplay depth that the others can. (When I say gameplay depth, I mean, simultaneous gameplay, like an RTS computing thousands of different things in real time, not how good the gameplay is)
Therefore, when making a wii game, the gameplay has to be that much better, and use less tools with which to run it. Fewer environments, smaller levels, lighter graphics+details. The dev has to be much more clever to make it seem like the player is getting the same thing. For instance in SMG, the planets are all relatively small and everything is on a timer or patterned. This means that the system only has to render a small part of the environment at any one time, and even cleverly hide a loading period when shooting to other planets.
It's the same with all the wii games, and DS games for that matter. It's hides in "style" or "scope" or "rails".

Additionally, most of the core audience enjoys games with lots of replayability and addictiveness. Minigames and challenges to improve scores are littered among the wii titles.

Now, taking into account the increased cleverness needed, and increased gameplay replayability, you're looking at a couple things. (Note that "-" signs do not mean bad, they mean standard)
+replayability +cleverness (pretty much only nintendo)
+replayability -cleverness Minigames
-replayability +cleverness ex: Madworld, the Conduit
-replayabliity - cleverness (this one entails a normal core ps360/PC game)* impossible due to system constraints.

Note about the above: I'm not saying anything above is fact. I'm trying to describe how different it is for successful games on the wii. In order to make comparable games, you need to tone down the scope and inject addictive qualities. The simplest addictive quality is score, the second, is collecting. However, the kind of games that are popular on pc/ps360, don't involve score for the most part, and the ones that use collecting, use it in such a fashion that it would not be possible on the wii. There are just too many varied things to collect/unlock. Additionally, when you want to improve on one of these things, something else has to take a hit. And that's where the cleverness comes in, and why cleverness is the most crucial aspect of this whole thing.

It costs a lot of money to make a clever game. And that is why you don't see many of them.

quoted for people who didn't read it the first time.

All I got out of your post is that third parties lack the competence to make a good game.

Btw, your conclusion is contradicting the rest of your post. You highlight Super Mario Galaxy as a clever game and say that such a game costs a lot of money, but we know that it was cheaper to make than the majority of HD titles. Therefore costs can't be the reason why there aren't more clever games on the Wii. It must be that third parties suck at making games and being aware of it, that's why they don't bother to try. That at least is a logical explanation.

I was thinking that as well. I mean, look at this: "The dev has to be much more clever to make it seem like the player is getting the same thing."

Why shouldn't the developer ALWAYS be more clever? Basically prof00 is implying going the extra mile is just to make up for weak specs, not because that's a way to make a game good.

That isn't just for the Wii. That's always been how you separate the great game makers from the mediocre.

HD systems have plenty of cleverly designed games and innovative ideas. It's just they don't need to figure out more than that. Nintendo is a great publisher because they are doubly clever and only release 1-2 big polish games per year, if that. They have plenty of time to think up new transitions and ways to subtly shrink the scope without the player noticing. It's more difficult than you think. Plus, they have to compete with Nintendo for consumer dollars.



theprof00 said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
RolStoppable said:
theprof00 said:
theprof00 said:
The problem with the wii games is that they generally cannot hold as much data/ cannot run the same level of graphics and gameplay depth that the others can. (When I say gameplay depth, I mean, simultaneous gameplay, like an RTS computing thousands of different things in real time, not how good the gameplay is)
Therefore, when making a wii game, the gameplay has to be that much better, and use less tools with which to run it. Fewer environments, smaller levels, lighter graphics+details. The dev has to be much more clever to make it seem like the player is getting the same thing. For instance in SMG, the planets are all relatively small and everything is on a timer or patterned. This means that the system only has to render a small part of the environment at any one time, and even cleverly hide a loading period when shooting to other planets.
It's the same with all the wii games, and DS games for that matter. It's hides in "style" or "scope" or "rails".

Additionally, most of the core audience enjoys games with lots of replayability and addictiveness. Minigames and challenges to improve scores are littered among the wii titles.

Now, taking into account the increased cleverness needed, and increased gameplay replayability, you're looking at a couple things. (Note that "-" signs do not mean bad, they mean standard)
+replayability +cleverness (pretty much only nintendo)
+replayability -cleverness Minigames
-replayability +cleverness ex: Madworld, the Conduit
-replayabliity - cleverness (this one entails a normal core ps360/PC game)* impossible due to system constraints.

Note about the above: I'm not saying anything above is fact. I'm trying to describe how different it is for successful games on the wii. In order to make comparable games, you need to tone down the scope and inject addictive qualities. The simplest addictive quality is score, the second, is collecting. However, the kind of games that are popular on pc/ps360, don't involve score for the most part, and the ones that use collecting, use it in such a fashion that it would not be possible on the wii. There are just too many varied things to collect/unlock. Additionally, when you want to improve on one of these things, something else has to take a hit. And that's where the cleverness comes in, and why cleverness is the most crucial aspect of this whole thing.

It costs a lot of money to make a clever game. And that is why you don't see many of them.

quoted for people who didn't read it the first time.

All I got out of your post is that third parties lack the competence to make a good game.

Btw, your conclusion is contradicting the rest of your post. You highlight Super Mario Galaxy as a clever game and say that such a game costs a lot of money, but we know that it was cheaper to make than the majority of HD titles. Therefore costs can't be the reason why there aren't more clever games on the Wii. It must be that third parties suck at making games and being aware of it, that's why they don't bother to try. That at least is a logical explanation.

I was thinking that as well. I mean, look at this: "The dev has to be much more clever to make it seem like the player is getting the same thing."

Why shouldn't the developer ALWAYS be more clever? Basically prof00 is implying going the extra mile is just to make up for weak specs, not because that's a way to make a game good.

That isn't just for the Wii. That's always been how you separate the great game makers from the mediocre.

HD systems have plenty of cleverly designed games and innovative ideas. It's just they don't need to figure out more than that. Nintendo is a great publisher because they are doubly clever and only release 1-2 big polish games per year, if that. They have plenty of time to think up new transitions and ways to subtly shrink the scope without the player noticing. It's more difficult than you think. Plus, they have to compete with Nintendo for consumer dollars.

Wrong. The truly great HD games do have more than that, the same as any truly great game on any system. Thinking the HD specs makes up for anything is to be creatively lazy as anyone who think it's the tools more than the talent of the craftsman (and don't you dare pretend I'm saying the tools don't matter at all by that).



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

It really makes you wonder why would people buy a console that doesnt have the games they like, I mean, if you want other games, get the consoles that have them and stop whining.

Im glad Im happy with my console.