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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - The Official Halo: Reach Thread

Quote:
Are there going to be vehicles in the Arena?

(And all other questions about parts of the sandbox, like abilities or specific weapons)


Our goal is to only include parts of the sandbox which lend themselves well to a competitive but even game. If there was a Scorpion on the map, and one person could go on a tear with a dozen kills with it, then the Arena would turn into "first person to the Scorpion gets a high rating!"

That is not our goal. The Arena is not intended to be a measure of how fast you are at getting to the single rocket launcher spawn.
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Are there going to be rewards--other than honor and glory--for being a top ranked Arena player? Like armor permutations, b.net mentions, etc?

No. We do not want people who do not enjoy Arena style playlists to feel compelled to do them to get the helmet that they really want.

The Arena and its Ratings/Divisions are their own reward, intended for the people who crave that particular flavor of reward.

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Are there 5 ranks for every season or every day?

Every game, you will get a Rating.
E.g., 1340

Every day that you play at least X games (say, 3 games), your best X games will be averaged to give you a Day Rating.
E.g., 1314

Every Season that you get rated in Y days (say, 5 days), you will be assigned to a Division based on your performance across all games in the entire Season.
E.g., Silver Division

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Will you be able to bring in a party to arena, or is it a single player entrance into the playlist like slayer?

You can bring in a party, but only up to the team size. E.g., 4 player parties in a 4v4 playlist.

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How big of a role will the social search criteria play into finding teams in the arena?

Will the social search options play a role into the types of teams you get matched up against?


In Arena, Social Preferences will matter a lot less than Skill. When finding opponents, probably not at all. At most, they'd be a tie-breaker.

Quote:
What did you have for lunch?

Will this seasonal class tier thing be the only ranking system in reach or is it just exclusive for arena?


A chicken chalupa, and because it's Friday and I'm doing forum posts, a marguerita.

Seasonal Divisions and Ratings are Arena only. As for other ranking systems that people are asking about, sorry: "more details Soon." :)

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What would happen if I were Onyx division and chose to search with a friend who hadn't played a game of Halo yet? Would I get matched with players in Onyx division or players in lower divisions?

They will match with Onyx players, equal to the highest player in the party. The Arena is not a place to bring a date.
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Will quitting out of matches have an effect on one's Arena ranking?

Yes, in as much as it will count as a loss, and if you do it too much, the Banhammer will apply a special new kind of punishment targeted specifically at quitters. (No, I can't detail it right now.)

Quote:
If you were to incorporate objective games later, would you be required to keep them in their own playlist(s), or would you be able to use different forms of ranking for each individual game, enabling you to create playlists that are a mix of slayer and objective?

I can answer this on philosophical terms: if we added an Objective Arena gametype, with a good, robust Rating scheme that didn't ruin the gametype ("yeah, imma betray you so i get points for carrying the flag, sux2bu"), we would put it in its own playlist so that players can measure their skill specifically in that gametype
Quote:
Ferrex do you personally think that because of this arena more people will be camping?

I don't think so, no. The way the Rating formula works, it is important to not throw your life away, but not so important that sitting behind a corner with a shotgun and going 5-0 in a game to 50 means you get a good Rating.

But we'll see. I'm sure some players will still find this to be optimal.

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Will the stats and ratings from the Arena be posted on Bungie.net? And if yes can you specify wether it's the Beta Arena's stats and ratings, the actual game[Halo Reach] itself's stats and ratings or both?

I think these are both a safe bet. We like stats on b.net.

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Will the new voting system be restricted in the Arena as there is (currently) a notable lack of Objective games?

Also, have you guys tweaked the Trueskill system as you did for Halo 3 (but obviously in a different way, such as making the system more fluid) or is it left in its original form this time around?


Arena playlist voting options will definitely be different. For example, you might find yourself voting more on the map you want to play than the gametype.

And the way we're using TrueSkill this time is closer to its original form and intended purpose, which (as I've mentioned before) it's really quite good at.
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Does the numerical rank decrease or increase with greater skill? By that, I mean are we striving to get 0001 or, for example, 5000?

The Rating (it's not a ranking, because it isn't relative to other players) will vary within a range of 0 (far, far worse than the worst imaginable performance) and 2000 (an inconceivably good showing.) Most ratings will be around 1000-1500. It'll be easier to see when we publish the formula.

The ideal is that players strive to make it better, such that you can say "hot damn, I cracked 1600 last night", and your friends will know what that means.
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Grenade Launcher

The GL fills a similar role as the Brute Shot, in that it can disrupt vehicles without being an overwhelming anti-infantry weapon like the Rocket Launcher, which means we can use them more often.

Functionally, though, it's a very different weapon with a lot of nuanced tricks. We'll see how close to balanced it is the Beta!


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How far is the skill level between someone in the 99th percentile of Onyx and the 1st percentile of Gold? Would the Onyx player own the Gold player, or would it be very even?

Same goes from players in the same division, IE 1st percentile Gold and 99th percentile gold.


The highest player in Gold and the lowest player in Onyx would be practically identical, existing as neighbors right on the very threshold of the Divisions.

I can't speak to the difference in players within a Division, though. Besides being different per Division (for example, there might be a wider skill range in Bronze than Silver), I just don't know our Arena players yet. :)
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Legit 1200? So what division does that put you in?

It doesn't. It will make more sense later, but a Rating only tells you how good you did against the people you played against (i.e., your peers.)

You could have a Silver Division player who gets a Day Rating of 1200, or an Onyx Division player who gets a Day Rating of 1200. Both of those players know "ugh... I didn't play very well* last night. I need to do better."

Short version:
Division = who your peers are
Rating = how well you played against your peers

*1200 is not very good. :(

Quote:
I know its hard to know what the population might look like in terms of sheer numbers, but do you have a rough target percentage for how many players would be in Onyx, Gold, etc.?

We won't be comfortable answering that till after the Beta and we've seen some real numbers. Sorry. :(
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How will you see your position within a league? I know that global leaderboards have brought problems in the past.

Your Division assignment approximately indicates your position in a playlist. There is no leaderboard beyond that. Our experience with leaderboards has been that they strongly motivate players to cheat, and ultimately only really matter to the top sliver of players anyway. Do you really care if you're #12000 or #11990?

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In team based gametypes is it possible for the system to rank you as a team, rather than just individually? I may or may not be probing about the possibility of clans...

It is possible, in that Halo 3 did just that, but Arena playlists rank players as individuals. (And yes, victory as a team does affect that ranking, but not so much that the worst player on the winning team ranks above the best player on the losing team, a la Halo 3.)

Quote:
Does the numerical rank decrease or increase with greater skill? By that, I mean are we striving to get 0001 or, for example, 5000?

The Rating (it's not a ranking, because it isn't relative to other players) will vary within a range of 0 (far, far worse than the worst imaginable performance) and 2000 (an inconceivably good showing.) Most ratings will be around 1000-1500. It'll be easier to see when we publish the formula.

The ideal is that players strive to make it better, such that you can say "hot damn, I cracked 1600 last night", and your friends will know what that means.

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Are you approaching The Arena with an interest in having a balanced game while still keeping a varied sandbox in play?

We always have that interest. We sometimes allow ourselves to fall short of that goal to add fun things to the game, like Gravity Hammers and Mongooses.

Or is it Mongoosen?


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Quote:
Legit 1200? So what division does that put you in?

It doesn't. It will make more sense later, but a Rating only tells you how good you did against the people you played against (i.e., your peers.)

You could have a Silver Division player who gets a Day Rating of 1200, or an Onyx Division player who gets a Day Rating of 1200. Both of those players know "ugh... I didn't play very well* last night. I need to do better."

Short version:
Division = who your peers are
Rating = how well you played against your peers

*1200 is not very good. :(

 

Quote:
I know its hard to know what the population might look like in terms of sheer numbers, but do you have a rough target percentage for how many players would be in Onyx, Gold, etc.?

We won't be comfortable answering that till after the Beta and we've seen some real numbers. Sorry. :(


This is some great news, i'm sorry i havent been on more often guys, i'm so busy I.R.L. got a wedding to prepare for, college is getting increasing hard, and blah blah.

Great post Jagged, love the support your showing, and thanks guys for keeping Halo: Reach alive in the forums! Now if we could only get a Sticky...hmmm



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http://doublebuffered.com/2010/03/14/gdc-2010-design-in-detail-changing-the-time-between-shots-for-the-sniper-rifle-from-0-5-to-0-7-seconds-for-halo-3/

 

Here’s some notes from the session Design in Detail: Changing the Time Between Shots for the Sniper Rifle from 0.5 to 0.7 Seconds for Halo 3 presented by Jaime Griesemer from Bungie. He was in charge of multiplayer balance for Halo 1, 2, and 3 so has a lot of relevant experience. The talk was jam packed with information, so odds are very high that I missed something. At the end he was going pretty dang quick to fit it all in the hour session. Oh, and at some point he had a few slides about the odds of monkeys with typewriters reproducing the talk being like 0.2%, but it was pretty out of place so I honestly can’t remember where it fit in.

Designing Balance

  • Longevity means balanced. If a game like Halo 2 has been played and enjoyed by millions for years, it is balanced.
  • Balance can’t happen until the end of development, but you can’t wait until the end to balance because you won’t get it done. The solution is to balance in iterative passes. Once you’ve balanced at a certain level, don’t go backwards until you absolutely have to.
  • Passes are roughly (Note: I think I missed one) Role -> Flow -> Strength -> Limitations -> Detail
  • Two cognitive halves to balance. First, you have to develop an intuitive sense of balance. Using the non-rational part of reasoning, your brain (orbital frontal cortex) builds models and uses them to predict the future. If something feels wrong to you about the balance of the game, this is what tells you.
  • That part of the brain is great at telling you something is wrong, but not at telling you how to fix it. You have to use the other half to make the hard choices. Your brain (pre frontal cortex) needs to use reason to figure out what to change. But it can only work on so much information at a time. You have to work at a low detail level, and ONLY pay attention to info relevant to the current stage.
  • As an example, there’s an experiment from the Choice episode of Radiolab. Subjects were given either a long number or short number to remember, and then were ambushed with the offer of cake or an apple. People with the short numbers picked apples, but people with the long numbers picked cake, because they didn’t have enough reasoning capacity left to make a rational food choice and went with the emotional one. (Note: That episode of Radiolab is great, and as a fan I have to say you should all go read “How We Decide” by Jonah Lehrer. The evidence is really strong for Jaime’s point here).
  • The first part to each pass is going to be paper design. You need to plan out the behavior of all objects on paper before implementing them, so you can make sure they make sense. Figure out basic mechanics, desired feel, critical assets and important details.

Balancing Roles

  • When designing roles you have to balance simple against complex. The goal is to make the game barely manageable at it’s deepest.
  • Roles need to have actual functional differences. Rock-paper-scissors is not actually good design, as the 3 roles are completely identical. The depth in any multiplayer game comes from the roles and their interactions
  • For a shooter, you should have no more than 1 weapon per role. If you add weapons that satisfy the same role but are different, you’re simply adding complexity and NOT depth. All shooters have the same weapons because they have the same roles. (Note: And players realize that now and get bored)
  • Similarly, you can’t leave any role without a weapon. Rock-paper-nothing is not even a game.
  • When cleaning up your paper design you should practice iterative deletion. Delete whatever isn’t necessary to fill a distinct role, and then delete everything that NOW isn’t necessary. And so forth.
  • You have to balance chaos against certainty at this point. You want players to be able to think about probable, but not inevitable future results.
  • In a largescale multiplayer game you need to be careful about the levels of “yomi” needed to succeed. Basically you should stop at “I know what you know about me” and not get into too much recursion. If it looks like a gun it should be a gun.
  • Beware of positive and negative feedback loops. If doing well causes you to do even better this gets in the way of balance.
  • Use slots whenever possible instead of having to balance larger chunks. Always balance the core elements first. Cut half of whatever you do.

Balancing Flow

  • Flow can’t really be balanced until objects first start to come online during production. At this point, the designer is in charge and should be setting the tone. Feedback is not super important at this point in the process.
  • During this phase you need to get the cadence just right. If it’s too slow the player will get bored, and if it’s too fast the distinct events will star to blur together.
  • Verisimilitude is key at this point. Triggers should be for shooting and buttons are for punching, analogous to the real world action. Work on making it feel real.
  • This is where you add the first pass of spectacle. Think about sounds, control, animation. In the sniper rifle case it unzooms for reload 0.5 seconds late, just so you can see your target die satisfyingly.
  • Causality needs to be established. Your game has to look good on youtube, so you can tell what is making what happen. Players need to understand the causality of game events or they will think it cheats. Make this as obvious as possible, and throw out realism to establish it.
  • The flow of a game is fragile, so as a designer you’ll have to use your imagination to get in the flow state this early in dev. Make your own sound effects. Whatever works.
  • You want your game to have a low floor for flow so players can get into it, but a very high ceiling so they can always go deeper into an individual mechanic. Add as much detail as possible at the high end, to give them something to strive for.

Balancing Strength

  • To enter the next phase, gameplay needs to be functional and largely optimized. Framerate above graphics quality. It has to work.
  • Ketchup works because it’s 5 primary flavors, all pushed to the max. Halo (and by extension all game should) is like ketchup.
  • Affordance is key at this stage. If the strength of something has to be explained, then it isn’t really a strength.
  • It can be tricky to balance, because designers can misinterpret competence (getting good at a weapon) with the weapon being balanced. We CANNOT use our intuition at this stage because it will lie to us. Changes will have to be done in larger batches, and we need to avoid bias effects.

Balancing Limitations

  • Once everything is strong and useful, it’s time to start adding limitations. Limitations are not weaknesses. You add limitations to restrict the situations in which a role is successful, not add randomness.
  • If the same role wins in too many situations, add limitations. If the outcome of a certain role in a situation is essentially random, there may be too many limitations to be understandable by the players
  • Work on serious playtesting at this point. You want players to play, and you shouldn’t argue with them. Look for their reactions, NOT their solutions. “I don’t like x” is useful, “I don’t like x because of y” is great, and “You should do x” is useless. Trust the player’s gut (intuition) but don’t trust their reasoning as they do NOT have the same mental context you do as the designer. (Note: I 100% agree with and endorse this feedback strategy)
  • Negative feedback generally means that the game in their head does not match the game as it actually exists. Either try to match it better, or do a better job of realistically setting expectations via teaching.
  • Identify the specific goals of your playtester and keep that context in mind. Optimizers look to find the best overall, Ragers quit when frustrated, Role players always try the same weapon, “Your mom” will get confused, Griefers will try to destroy it for others, and Pros will hate you for any randomness.

Detail Balancing, and the Sniper Rifle Specifically

  • Look to see if any weapons are being used outside of the roles you initially designed. See if any weapons are strictly dominating others.
  • Eventually, using the Sniper Rifle hit the intuition of the designers. Using it felt wrong, something was out of balance, which was that the sniper rifle was too effective at close range, and too effective when getting body shots without nearby cover.
  • The first idea is to reduce the strength knobs. But you should avoid this as it’s going backwards, and it’ll make the weapon feel week. Don’t reduce damage, range, or add random weaknesses. Don’t make the sniper rifle worse at it’s primary role.
  • Couldn’t reduce sniper rifle magazine to 3, as then you couldn’t kill 2 ranged enemies without a reload. Increasing reload or time to zoom only fixed half the problem. Modifying max ammo count would fix the average problem but NOT the instantaneous problem, which is what people actually notice.
  • In this case Flow made sense to modify. The cadence was picked to make the sniper rifle feel fast and rapid fire (Note: rapid fire sniper with one shot kill is a weird concept, he didn’t explain the original idea behind this) but it needed to change. So, the time between shots was increased, because this didn’t weaken the original role but made it worse in other roles.
  • It went from 0.5 to 0.7 because you should never change anything less than 10%. Players won’t notice it at all, and a balance problem has to be fairly big to be noticeable in the first place. Overshoot and then come back if you can.


Tease.

^^^ The above is why Bungie are brilliant and why other developers ought to look up to them, especially ones which make online games.



Tease.

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this game is going to kick major booty....



http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&link=BWU_031910

Some good info in the update.  The biggest one in my mind is, IN GAME BROWSING OF FILE SHARES!!!!  No more using Bungie.net to see the population's creations, it will all be in game.  Excellent news.



Damn Jagged!  Where do you find all this Reach gold at?



AlkamistStar said:
This is some great news, i'm sorry i havent been on more often guys, i'm so busy I.R.L. got a wedding to prepare for, college is getting increasing hard, and blah blah.

Great post Jagged, love the support your showing, and thanks guys for keeping Halo: Reach alive in the forums! Now if we could only get a Sticky...hmmm

I'm gonna ask about a sticky now.

Surprised it hasn't been done yet...



                            

Done.

I asked Torillian, so thanks go to him