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PS5 Confirmed Backward Compatibility

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Cerebralbore101 said:
jason1637 said:

But the switch OS is missing a lot of features compared to the PS4. With the rumored changes to PSN I could see the PS5 taking up maybe 4-6gb. 8 would be too much though.

Yeah, but what features are really relevant? Beyond TV subscription apps, and PSN I don't see the other features of PS4 as being relevant. What the heck would they add that would take up so much RAM? We don't need PS4 to become this bloated Smartphoney looking thing, with a thousand and one apps pre-installed that nobody uses. 

MS took a big gamble with functionality (Sports, T.V., Sports, T.V.) and lost. 

I guesse it depends on the person. I probably spend half the time on gaming consoles watching videos, movies or listening to music. But there are some people that only game on their consoles.



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drkohler said:
People are getting a little overexcited about the Cerny interview.
I think the whole raytracing thing is being overblown here. There is no way you can get full ray tracing hardware into a $400-$500 console. My guess is when Cerny talked about ray tracing and sound processing basically in the same sentence, he was thinking of some ray-casting solution for sound. Done by maybe something like the Tensilica chip inside the XBox, sort of a Tensilica+. "Sound casting" is it if we want to invent a new name. This would essentially give "Sensurround" to consoles.
As for the magic ssd, I don't think there will be a terabyte(s) ssd (again, price matters), I'm thinking there will be a really fast ssd buffer in the 128G range, enough to "turbo-"stream enough graphics, and so there won't be any need for more than 16-20GByte of ram.
Again, the SoC alone will probably be in the $150-$200 range, there is a limit to what you can build with the rest, given monetary constraints.

Honestly, it would not surprise me that the PS5 indeed has hardware accelerated ray tracing like Nvidia's DXR solution on their Turing architecture. Ray tracing has already been standardized in the DirectX specifications so it's only a matter of time before others such as AMD or Intel implement it in their graphics hardware ... 

A hardware accelerated ray tracing solution is not that far out of reach for a $499 system when we look at the RTX 2060 which has an MSRP of $349 ... 



jason1637 said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Yeah, but what features are really relevant? Beyond TV subscription apps, and PSN I don't see the other features of PS4 as being relevant. What the heck would they add that would take up so much RAM? We don't need PS4 to become this bloated Smartphoney looking thing, with a thousand and one apps pre-installed that nobody uses. 

MS took a big gamble with functionality (Sports, T.V., Sports, T.V.) and lost. 

I guesse it depends on the person. I probably spend half the time on gaming consoles watching videos, movies or listening to music. But there are some people that only game on their consoles.

Absolutely depends on the person.  I completely ditched cable and use my PS4 as my nearly complete, when i'm not using the computer, media unit.  Playstation Vue, Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Crunchyroll, Youtube, and video games.

My friend on the other hand uses his XBONE in a similar manor while retaining cable TV.  He all the extra features of the XBONE such as the passthrough stuff and the voice activation stuff and swears that he would never use a PS4 because it lacks that functionality.



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It doesn't sound like a $399 machine. I'm okay with it costing more, but past trends have demonstrated anything higher hasn't been too successful. Maybe it'll be $449 at a loss?

That or Sony is prepping two models, and we are hearing about the top tier one.

Anyway, BC will be much appreciated.



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Gaming on: PS4 Pro, Switch, SNES Mini, Wii U, PC (i5-7400, GTX 1060)

Solid-Stark said:
It doesn't sound like a $399 machine. I'm okay with it costing more, but past trends have demonstrated anything higher hasn't been too successful. Maybe it'll be $449 at a loss?

That or Sony is prepping two models, and we are hearing about the top tier one.

Anyway, BC will be much appreciated.

Multiple SKU model approach would be suicide. 



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When something sounds too good to be true, there's always a catch. No console can tick all boxes perfectly and it's unrealistic to expect a perfect console at a console level price. So either it's gonna be 600 again or something they're not telling about will happen. I will wait for some more news on the box as this just seems to be a guy from sony praising the heck out of a product they need to sell. Thier job is to make things look perfect, so we'll wait and see.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

taus90 said:
BraLoD said:

Nope, this is official.

All the info was gotten directly from Mark Cerny inside Sony headquarters with a devkit being actually used (for the SSD comparision).

Sony has retweeted this interview themselves.

All he mentioned on that quote has been confirmed.

I feel he think it some insider who leaked some PS5 info :D 

Pemalite: Also Just because something was introduced few years but didnt take off doesnt, mean cant be brought back on a better Hardware? (VR), even Sony has been Using 3D audio with different techniques and Ray tracing will be the new thing Not to forget Sony did recently acquire Audiokinetic

P.S. I wont be surprised if HZD2 Ai will use ray tracing collision detection.  

I meant things like the drive configurations and so on that everyone is commenting on without us actually having all the facts.

There is still allot of unknowns at this point.... Like how powerful the console is going to be which everyone seems to be throwing ideas around on. (Like dedicated Ray Tracing hardware and 80 CU's.)

taus90 said:

Did u miss crytek demonstration of Real time ray tracing solution for Cryengine 5.5's which is API and hardware agnostic and running on current gen GPUs. Do u have any doubt Sony's WWS will have a problem coming up with their own Ray tracing solution for their inhouse Engines given the right hardware?

I am not saying your assertion is either correct or incorrect, merely just asking for evidence.

DonFerrari said:

It is no rumor, it is an interview with Cerny.

Sony can sell it for 399 if they want, it certainly won't cost less than it to make though. And I wasn't aiming at you, but you know that in that thread it was about "SSD is impossible, even if small, consoles are price sensitive so they will only use HDD".

I was aware that Stadia would beat X1X, but what I had was that it was close, not about twice stronger. That is good =]

To be fair, my original assumption was for a device that targeted a $400 USD price point.
Consoles that are priced higher like the Xbox One X obviously can spend more on various components.

twintail said:

Not saying you are wrong but I have a hard time believing that Cerny of all ppl made a mistake here, especially in what is most likely a pretty controller interview.

That said, Digital Foundry have claimed that the hardware details Sony have announced actually does support ray tracing, and that Nvidia have been able to give older graphic cards through software. So Sony's solution could be software based though an employee at Naughty Dog seemed to suggest that it is actually hardware based.

Ray Tracing has been possible for years, it really depends how extensive you wish to implement the technology, the more robust your implementation of Ray Tracing is... The more hardware you need to throw at the problem.
Digital Foundry also recognizes this, hence their claim why it's technically possible to do on a base Xbox One.

And to be fair... Games were starting to dabble in Ray Tracing even on the 7th gen with a few path traced games in a few deferred renderer engines.

Mr_No said:

but what I'm very excited for is all this BC talk. PlayStation 4 BC has me excited, but what I'm keeping an eye on is on the patents they've filed months ago regarding a BC method to play the previous games, particularly PS3 ones. If there's PS3 BC confirmed, whether it's physical, digital or streaming, I'd be very pleased.

Indeed. It is certainly a good thing, competitive pressure from Microsoft has likely assisted to that end... As original Sony was fairly dismissive of the idea of backwards compatibility for one reason or another on the Playstation 4.

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/250579-everybody-always-claims-want-console-backwards-compatibility-doesnt-anybody-use

I would like a full extensive roll out though across every Playstation console, not a curated approach like Microsoft. - Both approaches have their Pro's and Con's obviously, but I digress.

CGI-Quality said:

Rumored RAM leak...

24 GB RAM in total (20 GB usable by games)

8 GB in form of 2 * 4-Hi stacks HBM2

I won't believe it until Cerny/Sony states that himself. I'm thinking more along the lines of 16GB (HBM2 or G6) with 4GB of DDR4 for the OS for a total of 20GB.

I concur. GDDR6 seems to be the more economical choice right now. But hey, if it has HBM2... I will be pleasantly surprised.

ratchet426 said:

I don't think he's talking about a regular 2.5" SATA SSD that you can plop into a PS4 today. It must be an M.2 PCIe SSD card, which is much faster than a regular SATA SSD interface.

SATA SSDs have a maximum speed of 600 MB per second, while M.2 PCIe cards can reach 4 GB per second.

We have absolutely no idea about the drive configurations. - For all we know it's a chunk of NAND soldered onto the motherboard with a PCI-E 4.0 interconnect that caches a spinning mechanical hard drive... And such an approach would possibly not just cache an internal mechanical hard drive.. But potentially external mechanical drives as well.

We aren't at a point where we can install all our games on NAND... Heck, have 13 Terabytes total on my Xbox One X and I am thinking about boosting even that amount.

DonFerrari said:

We don't have much on PS5 to compare besides what is in the OP.

If the 14TF target it could mean 40% extra.

You can ask around here, the drive doesn't cost more than 30. MS discless X1 is MSRP 250 and MS promissed it will always be 50 cheaper than X1S, that considering margin and they pushing a new model, X1S had a 4K drive, etc.

Real world performance will be more. The Xbox One X chip isn't using the latest and greatest of Graphics Core Next... So there is efficiency gains to be had with Navi, heck even Vega.

drkohler said:

I think we should add a few frontloaded expenses that change your rosy view:

a) Cost of making prototypes. Given how extremely expensive a large 7nm design is (currently), and assuming Sony actually has some working prototypes of PS5s (i.e. they are not high-specced PCs, we can very roughly add >=500M for developing the SoC (and whatever goes with it, peanuts in comparison to the SoC).

By 2020 7nm should be far more mature than it is currently, so Sony and Microsoft may be willing to invest in larger chips initially.

The_Liquid_Laser said:

PS4 was considered a conservative console when it was released.  PS3 was considered an ambitious console.  PS4 just happened to be more powerful than it's two competitors, because they both focused on expensive peripherals instead of hardware specs. 
  

Not as simple as that I am afraid. The chips themselves have a correlated increase in cost with increases in size.
The Xbox One's APU was roughly the same size as the Playstation 4's yet substantially inferior in terms of overall capability. - That is because of the ESRAM took up a chunk of the chip size.

fordy said:

There is a reason why the PC does not use NAND as a high traffic swap cache, and that has to do with the limited number of write cycles that NAND is limited to, which is overcome in Optane.

The thing with using NAND as a high-traffic swap cache is the idea of one write, many reads.
Which is why Readyboost cache was a thing, which is why the Corsair Accelerator existed and why the Sandisk Radycache was rather popular for awhile.
Add onto the mechanical drives with a chunk of NAND like the Seagate Firecuda SSHD.... And it's actually a common idea.

Optane is NAND which is optimized for it's task, rather than using commodity chips.

Cerebralbore101 said:

6. PC gaming wasn't quite as popular back in 2006. Nowadays a lot of people spend $1000 on a PC. So a $600 console doesn't seem like such an extravagance in this day and age.Â

Wut



Eagle367 said:
When something sounds too good to be true, there's always a catch. No console can tick all boxes perfectly and it's unrealistic to expect a perfect console at a console level price. So either it's gonna be 600 again or something they're not telling about will happen. I will wait for some more news on the box as this just seems to be a guy from sony praising the heck out of a product they need to sell. Thier job is to make things look perfect, so we'll wait and see.

Yeah, I was curious about this as well. If they think we'll (consumers) just roll over and accept a $600 price tag just because the PS4 was so we'll recieved - they've got another thing coming. Even $500 will be dancing with the devil. They can get away with $450, but anything more and history will come around the corner and hit em in the head with a baseball bat.



I just want to be able to play Xenogears with no hassle. No damned region locking via its network.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
Zoombael said:

What it might look like from afar... very far away...

With BC and games mostly likely be enhanced, right from the start PS5 will have an array of high quality titles, that were praised to high heaven almost throughout the entire generation, including yet to be released heavy weights. While the main competition guy was scolded continuously throughout the entire generation, with a powerful hardware already released, but no system sellers in sight. It is what it is.

There will be enough buyers when the PS5 launches. Even if the price tag is 600. I have no doubt about it. Taking in consideration how the PS3 did fare. And that even Sony was surprised how well PS4 was selling, struggling to keep up with demand, with hardware shortages well over half a year after launch.

To shoot for a higher price in order to spread demand and not to be outperformed in power for an extensive period of time is strategically sound. Always keep Virtual Reality in mind. Undoubtely Sony insinsts on pulling through. As we all know VR is very demanding. When a PSVR2 arrives a base of potent hardware has to pre exist. There is no way around it if Sony wants to surge ahead to be ahead of (potential) competitors. 

LOL, thank you.  I needed a good laugh.

You re welcome. I can laugh about the staggering ignorance people like you chose to display.



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