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Ka-pi96 said:
KiigelHeart said:
Are you for real? Could it be men are more likely to be involved in violent crimes, gangs, armed, intoxicated etc. Majority of homicide victims are also male.

Yeah, assuming those charts represent the general population as a whole, rather than just those that have direct dealings with police, then there are certainly a whole bunch of possible reasons other than sexism.

Although to be honest "risk/chance" charts like that generally don't mean much anyway.They don't actually show the risk/chance of something happening. They would if that was the sole deciding factor, but it isn't. There are a whole bunch of factors, such as the ones Kiigel listed above, that affect it too. They only prove that more black men die due to the police than anybody else, not that there's a higher chance of black men dying than anybody else. I expect the latter is true as well, but those charts don't actually prove it.

I would need the math explained to me on this latter statement. How would a comparison of per capita police death rates not indicate that black men have a higher chance of dying by police? If there were raw numbers they would prove that more black men die due to the police, but when adjusted per capita of the group they show which group has the highest chance of dying by police.  



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Ka-pi96 said:
Torillian said:

I would need the math explained to me on this latter statement. How would a comparison of per capita police death rates not indicate that black men have a higher chance of dying by police? If there were raw numbers they would prove that more black men die due to the police, but when adjusted per capita of the group they show which group has the highest chance of dying by police.  

Well you mentioned part of it in your post above in regards to women.

The issue is that the people being compared aren't equal. For an accurate estimate of chance you'd need to compare people who are equal in everything except the variable you're trying to determine the impact of. ie. if skin colour was the only difference between the groups of people then it would give you a near 100% accurate measurement of the chance of a member of that particular group being killed by police. But that's not really possible. The two groups have a huge amount of diversity in terms of location, socio-economic background, physical appearance (other than skin colour) and countless other factors. Even with people in the same group, is somebody in say Chicago more likely to be killed by police than somebody in a small town? Possibly. Is somebody that's clearly poor more likely to be killed than somebody that clearly has money? Possibly. Is somebody that's 6'4 and muscular more likely to be killed by police than somebody who's 5'4 and clearly not a physical threat? Possibly.

There are numerous other factors that could result in more black people being killed by cops than just skin colour. Those charts suggest there is a bias against black people, but they alone don't prove it. Even in a society with absolutely no racism at all there would likely still be a difference (albeit a smaller one) between the number of people of each ethnicity killed by police, even though the chances would be exactly equal (since with no racism, race would be a complete non-factor)

These are all the reasons behind the statistics but the numbers stand as they are. If you are black you are more likely to be killed by police in your lifetime. Why that happens (socioeconomic differences between the groups, geographic differences in where the two groups tend to live, just plain racism) is a point that can be debated. That it happens is not a point of debate. My confusion is the idea that per capita does not mean that a black person is more likely to be killed by police. They are, the question you seem to be focusing on (which is a good one) is why, but I was disputing the idea that there is no difference in likelihood of police brutality between these groups. 



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Otter said:
KiigelHeart said:

I'll answer to both of you. This isn't about not allowing a group of movement to have a leader. It's a tactic used in other countries to try and resolve a specific situation, which in this case is clearing the park. 

The reason he was arrested was disorderly conduct, that group were told to leave the park but didn't. They can't and don't want to arrest everybody so go for potential agitators and see if others leave. I'm not saying he was MLK or that they are trying to silence the whole movement ffs. Agree with this or not, this is what they do in Europe too so it's not an US thing. 

Arresting someone for potentially being a problem isn't always bullshit anyway. If some white surpremacist was walking towards the protest with his counter-protest signs and didn't obey to leave, then I'd say arrest him to avoid trouble. 

@Otter what narrative did I invent?

Also I get that some protesters want to get arrested to create disruption. It's ok, but then using that arrest to create a narrative is not with all the rioting going on. You just fuel more aggression between people and police. 

You're explaining a tactic. I'm fully aware of the tactic, its to prevent protests from being successful and productive. The original post was explaining that they don't distinguish between peaceful and non peaceful protest. What happened that they suddenly had to leave the park? Were they not peaceful?

Please again revisit the original talking points.

I'm personally done with this thread because I feel there are more important places for my energy to spent. its also why I'm not responding to you @KLAMarine. Please actively research whats going on (i.e confirmed deaths) if you're going to constantly engage in conversation.

My last point, for anyone who is hell bent on trying to discredit the idea that police brutality has racial bias, please reconfigure your priorities. Either you think deaths like George Floyds are justified or not. Either you think police need to be held more accountable or not. 

"My last point, for anyone who is hell bent on trying to discredit the idea that police brutality has racial bias"

>How do you mean? That police brutality affects blacks at greater rates than other groups on average? It's there, absolutely. NO DOUBT!

My problem is when people try to draw conclusions based solely on those numbers. Correlation does not equal causation and yet some people will draw the conclusion that blacks are being deliberately targeted based solely on this correlation. Flawed thinking.



coolbeans said:
Machiavellian said:

Exactly what evidence did you produce.  You stated that it takes months to even charge a officer for a crime.  We literally still within a week and the officer was fired and charged.  I know police procedure just as much as you do and I would like you to show me when was 4 police officers fired within days of an incident then also charged without hearing about a formal investigation that usually takes months.

Within my first response to you I brought up acounter-example from the Minneapolis PD (as direct a comparison as one can make): Officer Noor unjustifiably shooting & killing Justine Damond.  The time between said shooting and him being charged was ~8 months.  There wasn't some huge mob 7 months after Damond's death demanding he be charged with manslaughter and MPD just acquiesced.  No, it's clear all available evidence had to be gathered from as many sources as possible, assess how Noor failed in his duties leading UP to said death, and on and on.  I would've hated to have to wait that long for justice to proceed; however, given recent history of acquittals based on hasty decisions and technicalities (<-I believe AZ motel shooting as example) it seems like slow-n-steady increases the likelihood of winning the race.  

Giving the protests (that occasionally devolved into riots) all credit for that MPD officer being formally charged is based on ignorance.  That's the claim I shot down at the beginning and that was my focus.

I mean you say this but...some of your past points made regarding the Castile case suggest otherwise.  In regards to formal education, you're talking to someone who has an Associate's in Criminal Justice.  This doesn't defeat any old/new points you make by itself.  I'm just hesitant to believe you can confidently make that claim.  The problem with your example is that I have to deal with a stacked deck:

-find examples of 4 police officers being fired simultaneously then charged

The first problem is that's not the story with the Floyd case either.  Only 1 of the officers has currently been charged: Officer Chauvin.  To no surprise, he's the one shown kneeing Floyd's neck.  What about the other 3?  Since their responsibility is more indirect in comparison, it's easy to see why their charges may be staggered.  

I decided to leave the Castile case out of this since it would just be a tangent that would take a whole nother thread to address and I want to stay on point.  

Ok, you can leave the other 3 out of this and just concentrate on the one individual.  When has a police officer fired within days and also charged without an extensive investigation.  The standard protocol has always been administrative leave until an investigation is completed and after the investigation is when the City or state Attorney decides if there should be charges or not.  We did not hear about any investigation instead, Chauvin was immediately fired.  We did not hear about any investigation before charges were met out as well.  



Rioters and looters aren't protesters, period. Just like people who use excessive violence aren't policemen. Both hurt the exact cause they pretend to be against, which makes them hypocrites at best and assholes that need to be shot at worst.



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Have you guys seen the photo from Trump where he holds up that bible upside down?
I just saw a pic with "ryuk from death note" photoshopped into it.

Hopefully this brightens your day abit:





Well I guess gun sales will go through the roof during and after all this and gun control laws will probably not pass in the next few years. Another win for antifa.



LurkerJ said:

"Rioting & looting sends a message, it works, our goals will be achieved if we keep doing this!"

Assuming this is actually true and it does work to riot, but work to achieve what? what are you goals anyway? what do you want?

Every subset of the society in the US has lost some of its members due to police brutality, you're not more likely or less likely to be a victim because of your skin color. You have no cause, and this is not gonna fix anything because you're rioting against the problem that doesn't exist EVEN IF we all hypothetically agreed that rioting and looting solve those problems.

I will ask you a question, we have seen video and pictures of police brutality for these different subsets as you say.  What we have not seen is enough outrage where those other subsets go to the streets and protest such brutality.  The killing of white people by the police doesn't move white people enough to want reform, instead we hear all the excuses you can muster to continue with the status quo.  The difference is that POC are tired of being killed, locked up and arrested unjustly.  The difference is that POC are willing to take it to the streets, to Protest and try to initiate change.  

Your comment is what I expect for someone who will do nothing.  It will not be an issue for you nor will you care after the news cycle go to the next event.  Its what most white people do.  They say how tragic the situation is but its an isolated case.  For decades POC have been telling you it's not isolated but you continue to ignore it.  When you get video proof, you have a multitude of excuses to not do anything because the system works better for you then a minority.

So when White people say, White lives matter, POC think, you do not act like it.  You are not outrage enough when it happens to your own to take it to the streets and protest, you do not make it a big deal and say that's enough, you do not call your government officials and say you want a change.  You make no effort and thus nothing changes and when the next event happens it will be the same story.

So when I read statements like yours that says, police kill everyone as a means to diminish the issue, what you really trying to do is form a nice excuse to do nothing.  To let it slide.  The difference is that POC are tired of it sliding to the next incident and not being heard.



SpokenTruth said:

8). Police training. Many states require as little as 360 hours of training to become an officer with a badge and a gun. This stands in contrast for ALL states requiring a 4 year Bachelor's degree to be a teacher. Or over 1,500 hours of training to be a barber for some states, like Connecticut, plus pass a licensing and certification exam.

Damn, that little? That's merely 2 months of training. Even when I was becoming a mere security agent, I got 3 months of training here in Luxembourg - and I wasn't allowed to wield any weapon at that point, which would have required at least another 6 months of additional training.

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 02 June 2020

There is just no reason to loot or hurt other people just trying to make a decent living. Life is already hard enough as it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6pFwFjWW24

Edit: Also, I can't help but noticed a lot of people who are advocating these "protests" on this site are also the ones who got mad at me for suggesting that we should reopen and just practice common sense.

Last edited by Snoopy - on 02 June 2020