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Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

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Jaicee said:
tsogud said:

That doesn't mean Bernie supporters hate Warren as you've stated. She's literally their second choice. You should stop generalizing groups especially with no data to back it up, it's problematic.

No. Let's review.

1) I said that "many" Bernie Sanders supporters now actually prefer Biden over Warren. That is not a 'generalization', it's a statement of demonstrable fact. There is a difference. The survey data you yourself provided suggests it to be between one-third and one-fourth of Sanders supporters who currently feel that way.

2) According to the very survey you yourself pointed me to, the second choice candidates of Bernie Sanders supporters are:

Biden: 29%
Warren: 28%

In other words, Biden is actually the second choice of more Bernie Sanders voters than Warren is, according to this survey, which suggests that your bolded statement is incorrect.

For comparison's sake, the same poll finds that second choice candidates of Elizabeth Warren voters to be...

Sanders: 23%
Biden: 22%

There is a notable difference between 29% and 22%. It's not epic, but it is something. It's also just one poll, but that one poll is the one you pointed to and it does kind of bear out my point. I feel that it's a reflection though of the disproportionate belligerence we have seen from the Sanders camp toward Warren in recent weeks since she held that 15,000-strong rally in Seattle, which is when this fissure began by no coincidence.

No, let's review:

1. You said many Bernie supporters hate Warren more than Biden now. You didn't say prefer. That was a generalization based on nothing but your feelings.

2. 29% and 28% is a statistical tie, it's hardly anything you can use to say Bernie supporters hate Warren over Biden when they're tied for their second choice. And it's actually better now for Warren than it was last time a poll came out for second choices. Last time with Bernie supporters 26% preferred Biden as their second choice and 16% preferred Warren. That's a 12 point jump in Warren support from Bernie supporters to tie with Biden for the second choice now.

3. If you look at the data from last time Sanders support with Warren supporters actually dropped. Last time it was 25% that had Sanders as their second choice with Harris coming in at 14% and Biden at 13%. Sanders now is at 23% with Biden skyrocketed to 22% statistically tied with Sanders as the second choice.

So in conclusion, based on data your feelings are wrong and misplaced.

It actually seems the Warren camp is the camp that's beginning to "hate" Bernie over Biden by what the data suggests. If this trend continues as is, Biden will overtake Warren supporters' second choice slot, while Warren will overtake Sanders supporters' second choice slot.

Here is the poll data from last time.

Last edited by tsogud - on 19 September 2019

 

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Psh,



Jaicee said:

Psh,

Wow, you always do this when you're wrong. Instead of actually owning up to it...



 

Bernie Sanders and Andrew Yang will not be able to attend CNN's town hall on LGBTQ issues on Oct. 11th due to scheduling conflicts. Bad move on their part, hopefully they reschedule whatever they have for that day if they can.

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/462147-sanders-yang-to-miss-cnns-town-hall-on-lgbtq?amp



 

tsogud said:

Wow, you always do this when you're wrong. Instead of actually owning up to it...

Owning up to what? What is this, some kind of inquisition? You act like I've committed a mortal sin by standing up for my candidate.

If the word "hate" was an overly emotional choice of words, then okay, whatever. You know what I meant! But really, this thread is now devolving into conspiracy theories about how Warren won the endorsement of Working Families Party because it doesn't fit their stupid narrative about who low-income workers (as yours truly) are supposed to back in this election, and people are calling her a "snake" and so forth now even and you seriously expect me to interpret that as anything but irrational hatred of this particular candidate simply because she appears to be succeeding to an extent and getting somewhere?

People here are definitely singling out this particular candidate for way more vitriol than any other candidate at this point. Vitriol that's petty enough to be written off by yours truly, and the prevalence of which makes me frankly not want to continue visiting this thread for a while until it has calmed down and regained a degree of sanity.



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Jaicee said:
tsogud said:

Wow, you always do this when you're wrong. Instead of actually owning up to it...

Owning up to what? What is this, some kind of inquisition? You act like I've committed a mortal sin by standing up for my candidate.

If the word "hate" was an overly emotional choice of words, then okay, whatever. You know what I meant! But really, this thread is now devolving into conspiracy theories about how Warren won the endorsement of Working Families Party because it doesn't fit their stupid narrative about who low-income workers (as yours truly) are supposed to back in this election, and people are calling her a "snake" and so forth now even and you seriously expect me to interpret that as anything but irrational hatred of this particular candidate simply because she appears to be succeeding to an extent and getting somewhere?

People here are definitely singling out this particular candidate for way more vitriol than any other candidate at this point. Vitriol that's petty enough to be written off by yours truly, and the prevalence of which makes me frankly not want to continue visiting this thread for a while until it has calmed down and regained a degree of sanity.

Wow again being willfully ignorant and overly sensitive when it comes to legitimate criticisms of Warren. Is that what most Warren supporters do or just you??? But I wasn't talking about other people, I was talking about our conversation. In which you lied about what your initial statement and then did not back up your comments with data. I backed up my claim with data and proved that Warren support is getting extremely better with Bernie supporters. Moreover Biden support among Warren supporters has skyrocketed and will overtake Bernie support. It seems your initial "hate" statement was just a projection about the Warren camp.

Last edited by tsogud - on 19 September 2019

 

tsogud said:

Wow again being willfully ignorant and biased when it comes to legitimate criticisms of Warren. Is that what most Warren supporters do or just you??? But I wasn't talking about other people, I was talking about our conversation. In which you lied about what your initial statement and then did not back up your comments with data. I backed up my claim with data and proved that Warren support is getting extremely better with Bernie supporters. Moreover Biden support among Warren supporters has skyrocketed and will overtake Bernie support, it seems your initial statement was just a projection about the Warren camp.

I don't think Elizabeth Warren (or anyone) is perfect, to which end I've offered some criticisms of Warren myself here and there where I felt they were deserved, but I really think that most people here are just looking for excuses to distrust and dislike her as a person and they're very petty excuses that simply don't line up with the history of her life and what she has done with it. That is what I'm trying to say at heart.

The details you demanded I substantiated with data (supplied by you yourself no less). Your response has been to fabricate ways of denying it by focusing on the exact choice of words I employed rather than the heart of what was said. We are clearly not communicating.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 19 September 2019

Jaicee said:
tsogud said:

Wow again being willfully ignorant and biased when it comes to legitimate criticisms of Warren. Is that what most Warren supporters do or just you??? But I wasn't talking about other people, I was talking about our conversation. In which you lied about what your initial statement and then did not back up your comments with data. I backed up my claim with data and proved that Warren support is getting extremely better with Bernie supporters. Moreover Biden support among Warren supporters has skyrocketed and will overtake Bernie support, it seems your initial statement was just a projection about the Warren camp.

I don't think Elizabeth Warren (or anyone) is perfect, to which end I've offered some criticisms of Warren myself here and there where I felt they were deserved, but I really think that most people here are just looking for excuses to distrust and dislike her as a person and they're very petty excuses that simply don't line up with the history of her life and what she has done with it. That is what I'm trying to say at heart.

The details you demanded I substantiated with data (supplied by you yourself no less). Your response has been to fabricate ways of denying it by focusing on the exact choice of words I employed. We are clearly not communicating.

Nope, then you did not fully comprehend the data nor the extra data I provided to put it more into context. Instead you just dismissed it based on your feelings. I focused on "hate" because you intentionally lied about that part in your subsequent response to move the goalpost and proceed with your narrative born out of feelings. The fact of the matter is Warren support is growing among Bernie supporters to where it's currently tied with Biden. Bernie support among Warren supporters has shrunk with Biden support skyrocketing.

You're willfully being ignorant of the facts for some reason. I don't get why you like the narrative of "Bernie supporters hate Warren" so much that you have to deny data and evidence to push it.

Last edited by tsogud - on 19 September 2019

 

tsogud said:

Nope, then you did not fully comprehend the data nor the extra data I provided to put it more into context. Instead you just dismissed it based on your feelings. I focused on "hate" because you intentionally lied about that part in your subsequent response to move the goalpost and proceed with your narrative born out of feelings. The fact of the matter is Warren support is growing with Bernie supporters to where it's currently tied with Biden. Bernie support among Warren supporters has shrunk with Biden support skyrocketing.

You're willfully being ignorant of the facts for some reason. I don't get why you like the narrative of "Bernie supporters hate Warren" so much that you have to deny data and evidence to push it.

Bottom line: Elizabeth Warren is NOT a tool of big money. That's a ludicrous argument that matches up with nothing about the course of her life to date. Until people can admit that very simple and self-evident fact of life, this conversation will go nowhere.



Jaicee said:
tsogud said:

Nope, then you did not fully comprehend the data nor the extra data I provided to put it more into context. Instead you just dismissed it based on your feelings. I focused on "hate" because you intentionally lied about that part in your subsequent response to move the goalpost and proceed with your narrative born out of feelings. The fact of the matter is Warren support is growing with Bernie supporters to where it's currently tied with Biden. Bernie support among Warren supporters has shrunk with Biden support skyrocketing.

You're willfully being ignorant of the facts for some reason. I don't get why you like the narrative of "Bernie supporters hate Warren" so much that you have to deny data and evidence to push it.

Bottom line: Elizabeth Warren is NOT a tool of big money. That's a ludicrous argument that matches up with nothing about the course of her life to date. Until people can admit that very simple and self-evident fact of life, this conversation will go nowhere.

Where in the fuck, in any of the exchanges between the two of us right now, did I say Warren is a tool of big money??? It seems you're the one who can't communicate properly enough to even know what our conversation is about. Way to deflect...