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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - People Worked Up Over Mr. Game N Watch

Yerm said:
Runa216 said:
Oh good, Nintendo is removing the feather. Definitely the right move as far as I can tell.

Another win for social progress. Good job, Nintendo; I love that you're willing to see that such things ARE offensive and that, while they may have been okay 30 years ago there's no reason to perpetuate it today. And no, 'adherence to tradition' is not a good enough reason to perpetuate negative stereotypes. If you think it is, then maybe you should reevaluate yourself.

okay, but ask yourself, really dig deep here on this one- was the sprite actually a perpetuation of a negative stereotype, or does it just resemble a Native American? was the point of this reference to poke fun at Native Americans, or was it just meant to reference one of Nintendo's oldest games? did removing the feather actually reduce the amount of racism in the world? and are you aware that in Japan, racism basically does not even exist to a point where many dont even understand the concept of it?

and now really, REALLY dig deep on this one- could you actually foresee any impressionable child or teen playing Super Smash Bros Ultimate and then developing a negative view of Native Americans based on two frames of animation that vaguely resemble a man wearing a Native headdress?

if you answered yes to any of these, you need a reality check. there are more pressing matters, more urgent issues, better things in general to complain about that this. direct that energy you have into something more than this, that could actually make a difference. because updating Mr. Game & Watch's animation didnt do that

Wow, what a great way to miss the point! 

It's not about protecting children or anything like that, it literally boiled down to 'hey, this is a racist caricature; maybe it would be better if we didn't include it since we see absolutely no benefit to keeping it in the game'. Believe it or not, MOST people who are labelled as 'SJWs' aren't actually offended by the things they speak out against but they do identify what is and isn't appropriate and aim to use their voice to enact positive change in the world. 

This was a great example of that. Yes, some people went overboard (As people on the internet tend to do), but the response to those who had a problem with this has been equally abhorrent. Nintendo decided it had literally nothing to gain by keeping the headdress/feather imagery in the game and chose to take it out. Simple as that. Nothing to gain but certainly had things to lose as far as image is concerned. Nintendo does not want to be associated with the idea of perpetuating stereotypes and I don't blame them. 

And I repeat, I was not offended by the imagery and wouldn't have cared if they kept it in. Had they left it in the game I would have shrugged and moved on because I see both sides of the argument (Keeping the homage to the original vs removing offensive stereotypes). However, I do feel they made the right decision and I do not see or understand how you could be so angry about this. All I'm seeing everywhere is about how 'PC Police win again' or 'SJWs ruining another videogame'. 

Wow. 



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GhaudePhaede010 said:
thegamerpad said:

Do you get upset when a Roman fighter is depicted with a laurel wreath around their head?  Is that offensive?

That is a silly argument. At no point did he say he was upset by it.

 

Also, if people are offended that (your example), especially Romans (or even Italians), then who would I be to tell them they are incorrect to be upset over something they feel misrepresents their culture or values? The bigger question would be, "should I be upset that people are upset over something that they find offensive" because not everything on Earth will offend me. But that does not mean other people that are offended should be ignored because I am not offended.

Playing the "if people" offended is never going to work because there will always be people offended on either side.   Some Native Americans are offended at the constant removal of their likeness from things such as this.   You have to go more by a majority if anything, not just because 2% of people find something offensive we must appease them.   

Also, do we have any evidence/proof that it was actual native americans being offended?  Or was it some white guilt resetEra members trying to tell native americans they should be offended?    

An Indian Head-dress/feather is not a misrepresentation any more than a Laurel wreath is for roman.



Runa216 said:
thegamerpad said:

Do you get upset when a Roman fighter is depicted with a laurel wreath around their head?  Is that offensive?

Nope, but I wasn't upset or offended over this Game and Watch thing either. I just think that the world really should be progressing  and leaving racist stereotypes in the past where they belong. I wouldn't have been upset if they left the feather in, either; after all, it would be accurate to Game and Watch's original portrayal. However, given the modern climate it just made more sense to not put something like that in the game and I see no benefit to maintaining the old imagery. 

Balancing things out, there's a lot more good to be had by changing and adapting than slavishly adhering to old, frankly offensive material. What good could possibly be had by maintaining the offensive material? This isn;t a game ABOUT native americans, nor is it meant to make any sort of point about representation of media, so what good could keeping it do aside from appeasing to a small group of vocal traditionalists? 

Tell me, what's more important: adherence to tradition while also showing racist caricatures or, you know, not perpetuating negative stereotypes in a game that's meant to be enjoyed by everyone. it is rated E, after all.

It's not a sterotype that Native Americans wore feathers, that's a fact.
 
People define different things as progression, erasing Native American culture is not progress.  Removing representation of them is not progress.   If this was removing a Roman figher with a laurel wreath, a british soldier's bearskin hat or a samurai's hat,  none of that would be considered offensive...and it shouldn't, just like the feather.

You yourself even say the feather isn't offensive, so what would be the reason to remove it?  You then go on to call it "offensive material"  so is it offensive or not?

I just would like for once, one of you people that cling to "progression" or "modern climate" buzzwords would actually take a step back and look that things are done like this for 2 reasons:  1) Control and 2) Attention

1) Control:  People like to show that they can have the power to get things removed and done their way, so they cause a mini-outrage and if you don't agree with them you are considered a racist devil.   Most companies will cave to an argument about something as minor as this because they don't want to argue or be perceived as racist.   The people who claim offensiveniess at almost everything are trying to prove their control and at the same time vilify those that disagree with them  (Also remember they made this argument about the Sombrero being racist in Mario Odyssey)

2) Attention:  People like to look at things and break down how they can lawyer the shit out of an argument, find the loop hole, find the defense!  You see it all the time with dumb shit, the arm-chair lawyers.   Now we have a group of people that likes to dissect things and find the thing that they believe could be possibly perceived as offensive (usually to a group of people they're not even apart of) then they round up the similar virtuous people to back them up and try to convince the group that should be offended.   So many people want to be virtuous and pat themselves on the back and wear it like a badge that they "fought for the cause"....no...you got an indian headdress removed a game that nobody really cared about.



I don't think people are arguing in favor of the headdress more that they're arguing to stop giving these little voices big control over things.



Runa216 said:
Yerm said:

okay, but ask yourself, really dig deep here on this one- was the sprite actually a perpetuation of a negative stereotype, or does it just resemble a Native American? was the point of this reference to poke fun at Native Americans, or was it just meant to reference one of Nintendo's oldest games? did removing the feather actually reduce the amount of racism in the world? and are you aware that in Japan, racism basically does not even exist to a point where many dont even understand the concept of it?

and now really, REALLY dig deep on this one- could you actually foresee any impressionable child or teen playing Super Smash Bros Ultimate and then developing a negative view of Native Americans based on two frames of animation that vaguely resemble a man wearing a Native headdress?

if you answered yes to any of these, you need a reality check. there are more pressing matters, more urgent issues, better things in general to complain about that this. direct that energy you have into something more than this, that could actually make a difference. because updating Mr. Game & Watch's animation didnt do that

Wow, what a great way to miss the point! 

It's not about protecting children or anything like that, it literally boiled down to 'hey, this is a racist caricature; maybe it would be better if we didn't include it since we see absolutely no benefit to keeping it in the game'. Believe it or not, MOST people who are labelled as 'SJWs' aren't actually offended by the things they speak out against but they do identify what is and isn't appropriate and aim to use their voice to enact positive change in the world. 

This was a great example of that. Yes, some people went overboard (As people on the internet tend to do), but the response to those who had a problem with this has been equally abhorrent. Nintendo decided it had literally nothing to gain by keeping the headdress/feather imagery in the game and chose to take it out. Simple as that. Nothing to gain but certainly had things to lose as far as image is concerned. Nintendo does not want to be associated with the idea of perpetuating stereotypes and I don't blame them. 

And I repeat, I was not offended by the imagery and wouldn't have cared if they kept it in. Had they left it in the game I would have shrugged and moved on because I see both sides of the argument (Keeping the homage to the original vs removing offensive stereotypes). However, I do feel they made the right decision and I do not see or understand how you could be so angry about this. All I'm seeing everywhere is about how 'PC Police win again' or 'SJWs ruining another videogame'. 

Wow. 

congratulations. you are the problem.

you didnt even have a problem with it. you admit that even people who advocated against it didnt have a problem with it. who the hell do you think you are to tell the rest of the world what is and isnt allowed? i want angry before, i just wanted to give some perspective as to why people were upset about this, because its not about racist depictions of any ethnicity. its about people like you poking their noses where they dont belong. its about people like you complaining about things that dont even really offend you, you just feel the need to complain. its about people like you who make the entire entertainment industry suffer because now they have to cater to the new lowest common denominator, which is you and your demented mindset.

i ask you from one person to another, no hate or anger implied, please get a reality check



Runa216 said:

And I repeat, I was not offended by the imagery and wouldn't have cared if they kept it in. Had they left it in the game I would have shrugged and moved on because I see both sides of the argument (Keeping the homage to the original vs removing offensive stereotypes). However, I do feel they made the right decision and I do not see or understand how you could be so angry about this. All I'm seeing everywhere is about how 'PC Police win again' or 'SJWs ruining another videogame'. 

Wow. 

You don't get to say that it's not offensive at the same time you call it an offensive stereotype.  Also, it's not a stereotype.




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I would rather we not talk bout those idiots. Those guys are like trolls without realising they are trolls. They want attention and get it. So if we ignore everytime some of these idiots create a "controversy", they'll go away. Just as the media shouldn't talk about bombers name and face. Or like giving people;e drumpf bees all the time backfired in 2016 for the Dems. Point is, o know it sounds juicy to ridicule them, but if you want a win, keeping quiet is the best thing you can do



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Yerm said:
Runa216 said:

Wow, what a great way to miss the point! 

It's not about protecting children or anything like that, it literally boiled down to 'hey, this is a racist caricature; maybe it would be better if we didn't include it since we see absolutely no benefit to keeping it in the game'. Believe it or not, MOST people who are labelled as 'SJWs' aren't actually offended by the things they speak out against but they do identify what is and isn't appropriate and aim to use their voice to enact positive change in the world. 

This was a great example of that. Yes, some people went overboard (As people on the internet tend to do), but the response to those who had a problem with this has been equally abhorrent. Nintendo decided it had literally nothing to gain by keeping the headdress/feather imagery in the game and chose to take it out. Simple as that. Nothing to gain but certainly had things to lose as far as image is concerned. Nintendo does not want to be associated with the idea of perpetuating stereotypes and I don't blame them. 

And I repeat, I was not offended by the imagery and wouldn't have cared if they kept it in. Had they left it in the game I would have shrugged and moved on because I see both sides of the argument (Keeping the homage to the original vs removing offensive stereotypes). However, I do feel they made the right decision and I do not see or understand how you could be so angry about this. All I'm seeing everywhere is about how 'PC Police win again' or 'SJWs ruining another videogame'. 

Wow. 

congratulations. you are the problem.

you didnt even have a problem with it. you admit that even people who advocated against it didnt have a problem with it. who the hell do you think you are to tell the rest of the world what is and isnt allowed? i want angry before, i just wanted to give some perspective as to why people were upset about this, because its not about racist depictions of any ethnicity. its about people like you poking their noses where they dont belong. its about people like you complaining about things that dont even really offend you, you just feel the need to complain. its about people like you who make the entire entertainment industry suffer because now they have to cater to the new lowest common denominator, which is you and your demented mindset.

i ask you from one person to another, no hate or anger implied, please get a reality check

Wait, I have a thick enough skin to not be offended by something while still being able to identify when something is inappropriate and I'm the problem here? Sorry, I don't take advice to 'get a reality check' from someone so removed from reality themselves. 

There's no argument that says we have to keep inappropriate imagery in a game just so you can 'stick it to the libs' or whatever other pathetic reason you have for being so aggressively against the idea of not including offensive imagery in a videogame meant for all ages. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

thegamerpad said:
Runa216 said:

And I repeat, I was not offended by the imagery and wouldn't have cared if they kept it in. Had they left it in the game I would have shrugged and moved on because I see both sides of the argument (Keeping the homage to the original vs removing offensive stereotypes). However, I do feel they made the right decision and I do not see or understand how you could be so angry about this. All I'm seeing everywhere is about how 'PC Police win again' or 'SJWs ruining another videogame'. 

Wow. 

You don't get to say that it's not offensive at the same time you call it an offensive stereotype.  Also, it's not a stereotype.


I most certainly do. It appears you do not understand the difference in 'being offended' and 'finding something offensive'. Things like this are inappropriate given the modern climate and have no real reason to be perpetuated. I'm not personally upset by the idea of Game and Watch being portrayed with a feather in his head because I can see both sides of the argument. However, being upset about Nintendo's decision is just pathetic. They're a family friendly corporation who see no benefit to keeping a racist caricature in their game. simple as that. If you can't see that then I can't help you.



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

thegamerpad said:
Runa216 said:

Nope, but I wasn't upset or offended over this Game and Watch thing either. I just think that the world really should be progressing  and leaving racist stereotypes in the past where they belong. I wouldn't have been upset if they left the feather in, either; after all, it would be accurate to Game and Watch's original portrayal. However, given the modern climate it just made more sense to not put something like that in the game and I see no benefit to maintaining the old imagery. 

Balancing things out, there's a lot more good to be had by changing and adapting than slavishly adhering to old, frankly offensive material. What good could possibly be had by maintaining the offensive material? This isn;t a game ABOUT native americans, nor is it meant to make any sort of point about representation of media, so what good could keeping it do aside from appeasing to a small group of vocal traditionalists? 

Tell me, what's more important: adherence to tradition while also showing racist caricatures or, you know, not perpetuating negative stereotypes in a game that's meant to be enjoyed by everyone. it is rated E, after all.

It's not a sterotype that Native Americans wore feathers, that's a fact.
 
People define different things as progression, erasing Native American culture is not progress.  Removing representation of them is not progress.   If this was removing a Roman figher with a laurel wreath, a british soldier's bearskin hat or a samurai's hat,  none of that would be considered offensive...and it shouldn't, just like the feather.

You yourself even say the feather isn't offensive, so what would be the reason to remove it?  You then go on to call it "offensive material"  so is it offensive or not?

I just would like for once, one of you people that cling to "progression" or "modern climate" buzzwords would actually take a step back and look that things are done like this for 2 reasons:  1) Control and 2) Attention

1) Control:  People like to show that they can have the power to get things removed and done their way, so they cause a mini-outrage and if you don't agree with them you are considered a racist devil.   Most companies will cave to an argument about something as minor as this because they don't want to argue or be perceived as racist.   The people who claim offensiveniess at almost everything are trying to prove their control and at the same time vilify those that disagree with them  (Also remember they made this argument about the Sombrero being racist in Mario Odyssey)

2) Attention:  People like to look at things and break down how they can lawyer the shit out of an argument, find the loop hole, find the defense!  You see it all the time with dumb shit, the arm-chair lawyers.   Now we have a group of people that likes to dissect things and find the thing that they believe could be possibly perceived as offensive (usually to a group of people they're not even apart of) then they round up the similar virtuous people to back them up and try to convince the group that should be offended.   So many people want to be virtuous and pat themselves on the back and wear it like a badge that they "fought for the cause"....no...you got an indian headdress removed a game that nobody really cared about.



I don't think people are arguing in favor of the headdress more that they're arguing to stop giving these little voices big control over things.

you DO realize the issue isn't the feather itself, right? It's more about referencing the game it came from and the violent, inappropriate representation of natives in that game. The feather is just the key that links Game and Watch to that minigame that Nintendo feels isn't needed and doesn't help. Nintendo has no desire to actively bring attention or to glorify something they agree is inappropriate and doesn't represent what they represent anymore. 

The fact that you're unable to see more than skin deep on this issue is saddening. Any of these 'sjw' issues tend to be more than just 'bawww, I don't like this symbol', and are almost always multilayered problems that need to have specific cultural context to be understood, and by stripping out everything that is around the issue while focusing just on the symbol itself is no different than 'oh, the swastika is just a tibetan good luck charm'. Yeah, it may have been, but have you heard of WWII? cultural context is important and peeling it away to prove a point or strictly adhere to tradition is just not something you should be doing. 

Get with the times. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Runa216 said:
Yerm said:

congratulations. you are the problem.

you didnt even have a problem with it. you admit that even people who advocated against it didnt have a problem with it. who the hell do you think you are to tell the rest of the world what is and isnt allowed? i want angry before, i just wanted to give some perspective as to why people were upset about this, because its not about racist depictions of any ethnicity. its about people like you poking their noses where they dont belong. its about people like you complaining about things that dont even really offend you, you just feel the need to complain. its about people like you who make the entire entertainment industry suffer because now they have to cater to the new lowest common denominator, which is you and your demented mindset.

i ask you from one person to another, no hate or anger implied, please get a reality check

Wait, I have a thick enough skin to not be offended by something while still being able to identify when something is inappropriate and I'm the problem here? Sorry, I don't take advice to 'get a reality check' from someone so removed from reality themselves. 

There's no argument that says we have to keep inappropriate imagery in a game just so you can 'stick it to the libs' or whatever other pathetic reason you have for being so aggressively against the idea of not including offensive imagery in a videogame meant for all ages. 

i am a liberal, for the record. and i want to make this abundantly clear with no details being blurred between the lines. i am not trying to come across as angry or aggressive. and since you so profusely seem to misunderstand me - here is a literal list of the points that i hope you are open-minded enough to at least consider

1. people are upset at the changing of Mr. Game & Watch's animation because it removes the reference from the original game, not because they actively want to stereotype Native Americans

2. something can not be considered "offensive" if nobody is offended by it. the literal dictionary definition of "offensive" reads "causing someone to feel deeply upset, hurt, or angry". (in the case of this, i could even argue that removing the feather is offensive to those involved in the gaming industry and community, as i guarantee more people are upset by it being removed than people happy that its gone) its the same way that if nobody laughs at a joke, then the joke is not funny.

3. there are other worldly issues such as poverty, slavery, the corrupt government systems, etc, etc, etc, and yet energy is being directed at 2 frames of animation that vaguely resemble a man in a Native headdress.