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Forums - General Discussion - Dr. Shawn Baker challenges vegan jihadis, eats only meat for 15 months. Think he's unhealthy? Here's what happened...

Aeolus451 said:
VGPolyglot said:

Again, if they're facts that are so easy to verify you should be able to provide them, the burden of proof is on you if you bring it up.

Again, it's accepted facts that are taught to everyone. You should know it. There's no reason to source common sense.

Well, here are examples of longterm vegans:

http://thevegantruth.blogspot.ca/2013/03/a-compilation-of-long-term-vegans-our.html



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Aeolus451 said:
palou said:

Every single macro or micro nutrient can be found in high concentration in some plant matter... It's a pain, but there's absolutely no scientific reason why you couldn't balance a diet off of plant matter. 

That's a load of fud. Any kid's school book on health and the nutritional needs of humans says that you're wrong as a flat earther. Humans can only get B12 from animal products naturally and from supplements/injections artificially if you don't eat animal products.

B12 comes from bacteria, animals don't produce it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12 "No fungi, plants, or animals (including humans) are capable of synthesizing vitamin B12: only bacteria and archaea have the enzymes needed for its synthesis."

You could do the more natural thing, and eat dirty vegetables, unwashed mushrooms and such and get A TON of B12. Instead, vegans sanitize their food and then get the B12 through fortified foods and supplements.

Nutritional yeast: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/custom/1323565/2

We're not a natural culture; we cook, wash, and process our food in other ways. Even non-vegans can be deficient in B12; only certain kinds of meat (shellfish and ruminants) have it naturally, you can eat several kg of chicken each day and still be B12 deficient (unless the chickens were given supplements). Many food products (especially commercial vegan products) are fortified with it.

In the US, the biggest meat-eating country in the world - 39% of people have low B12 https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-events/news/research-news/2000/b12-deficiency-may-be-more-widespread-than-thought/ and show symptoms of deficiency. So, vegans are not the only ones who could benefit from B12 supplements.

But: Is there something wrong with not having all-natural products? 76.2% of Americans are on medication, 50% of them take vitamin pills; Europe varies, Western and Northern countries see levels in the 60%-70% range while Eastern countries see levels in the 25-50% range). Neither are natural, and much of the medical epidemic relates to poor diet.

I'll also bring up six extensive scientific studies across different nations all found people following low meat consumption diet live longer than those who consume lots of meat, and those who consume no meat live even longer. German and American studies also found that long-term veganism yields even more positive effects than short term. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/78/3/526S/4689992

 

So why is it that supplementation only gets called out as a bad thing when vegans do it? Basically, everyone in modern society consumes them via fortified foods in order to balance out their diet, by eating farmed animals who have had supplements in their feed, or other means; and if they don't, they're generally deficient. If we actually did live more naturally and gave up things such as food sanitization, then B12 deficiency wouldn't be an issue for anyone, vegan or non-vegan. We're not going to live naturally.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Jumpin said:
Aeolus451 said:

That's a load of fud. Any kid's school book on health and the nutritional needs of humans says that you're wrong as a flat earther. Humans can only get B12 from animal products naturally and from supplements/injections artificially if you don't eat animal products.

B12 comes from bacteria, animals don't produce it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12 "No fungi, plants, or animals (including humans) are capable of synthesizing vitamin B12: only bacteria and archaea have the enzymes needed for its synthesis."

You could do the more natural thing, and eat dirty vegetables, unwashed mushrooms and such and get A TON of B12. Instead, vegans sanitize their food and then get the B12 through fortified foods and supplements.

Nutritional yeast: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/custom/1323565/2

We're not a natural culture; we cook, wash, and process our food in other ways. Even non-vegans can be deficient in B12; only certain kinds of meat (shellfish and ruminants) have it naturally, you can eat several kg of chicken each day and still be B12 deficient (unless the chickens were given supplements). Many food products (especially commercial vegan products) are fortified with it.

In the US, the biggest meat-eating country in the world - 39% of people have low B12 https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-events/news/research-news/2000/b12-deficiency-may-be-more-widespread-than-thought/ and show symptoms of deficiency. So, vegans are not the only ones who could benefit from B12 supplements.

But: Is there something wrong with not having all-natural products? 76.2% of Americans are on medication, 50% of them take vitamin pills; Europe varies, Western and Northern countries see levels in the 60%-70% range while Eastern countries see levels in the 25-50% range). Neither are natural, and much of the medical epidemic relates to poor diet.

I'll also bring up six extensive scientific studies across different nations all found people following low meat consumption diet live longer than those who consume lots of meat, and those who consume no meat live even longer. German and American studies also found that long-term veganism yields even more positive effects than short term. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/78/3/526S/4689992

 

So why is it that supplementation only gets called out as a bad thing when vegans do it? Basically, everyone in modern society consumes them via fortified foods in order to balance out their diet, by eating farmed animals who have had supplements in their feed, or other means; and if they don't, they're generally deficient. If we actually did live more naturally and gave up things such as food sanitization, then B12 deficiency wouldn't be an issue for anyone, vegan or non-vegan. We're not going to live naturally.

Humans get their B12 from animal products.  We can't get B12 from the same sources as animals. Humans are naturally omnivores. End of story. Vegans have to take supplements to make up for what they're not eating. If you want to eat only meat or only fruits or only veggies or only debbie cakes, have at it but don't you dare try to mislead others that it's healthy.  In general, I don't care what others eat but I hate it when they get preachy over it or spread bullshit information trying to convince others to convert. I get along with vegetarians because they keep that shit to themselves unless someone asks. Vegans act like they're in a cult, condemning  and shaming others and trying to convert everyone. They're as bad as baptists back in the day.



palou said:
JRPGfan said:

Some proteins/fats/minerals/vitamins are really hard to find in "plant matter" though.

...which ones

 

In general, the composition of plants is a lot more diverse than that of meat. Further off from what you need, individually, but you have all the spikes you need to balance it out, if you do the math. 

 

The "best" diet is one thats varied/balanced, I think.

 

If you're not measuring it, this is probably true.

Stuff has already been said. But lets continue with Protein. What are easy sources of protein in plant sources?

And by Protein I mean:

Histidine

Isoleucine

Leucine

Lysine

Methionine

Phenylalanine

Threonine

Tryptophan

Valine

Arginine

Cysteine

Glutamine

Glycine

Proline

Tyrosine

 

I genuinely would like to know. I am sure they can be found, but easily? I don't think so.



Jumpin said:
Aeolus451 said:

That's a load of fud. Any kid's school book on health and the nutritional needs of humans says that you're wrong as a flat earther. Humans can only get B12 from animal products naturally and from supplements/injections artificially if you don't eat animal products.

B12 comes from bacteria, animals don't produce it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12 "No fungi, plants, or animals (including humans) are capable of synthesizing vitamin B12: only bacteria and archaea have the enzymes needed for its synthesis."

You could do the more natural thing, and eat dirty vegetables, unwashed mushrooms and such and get A TON of B12. Instead, vegans sanitize their food and then get the B12 through fortified foods and supplements.

Nutritional yeast: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/custom/1323565/2

We're not a natural culture; we cook, wash, and process our food in other ways. Even non-vegans can be deficient in B12; only certain kinds of meat (shellfish and ruminants) have it naturally, you can eat several kg of chicken each day and still be B12 deficient (unless the chickens were given supplements). Many food products (especially commercial vegan products) are fortified with it.

In the US, the biggest meat-eating country in the world - 39% of people have low B12 https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-events/news/research-news/2000/b12-deficiency-may-be-more-widespread-than-thought/ and show symptoms of deficiency. So, vegans are not the only ones who could benefit from B12 supplements.

But: Is there something wrong with not having all-natural products? 76.2% of Americans are on medication, 50% of them take vitamin pills; Europe varies, Western and Northern countries see levels in the 60%-70% range while Eastern countries see levels in the 25-50% range). Neither are natural, and much of the medical epidemic relates to poor diet.

I'll also bring up six extensive scientific studies across different nations all found people following low meat consumption diet live longer than those who consume lots of meat, and those who consume no meat live even longer. German and American studies also found that long-term veganism yields even more positive effects than short term. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/78/3/526S/4689992

 

So why is it that supplementation only gets called out as a bad thing when vegans do it? Basically, everyone in modern society consumes them via fortified foods in order to balance out their diet, by eating farmed animals who have had supplements in their feed, or other means; and if they don't, they're generally deficient. If we actually did live more naturally and gave up things such as food sanitization, then B12 deficiency wouldn't be an issue for anyone, vegan or non-vegan. We're not going to live naturally.

A study that shows that people that concern with their diets and take a long time planning it in average are healthier, who would guess?

Please put an study of vegans that just abandon any animal source but don't study their diet and how healthy they are... I can help you start.

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/05/19/malnourished-baby-dies-after-parents-fed-him-vegan-diet/22099336/

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/wjqbem/judge-convicts-parents-after-baby-dies-from-vegan-diet

https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-breastfed-by-vegan-mother-dies/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/11/italian-baby-fed-vegan-diet-hospitalized-for-malnutrition/

 

I could do it all day long.



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http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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VGPolyglot said:
Aeolus451 said:

Again, it's accepted facts that are taught to everyone. You should know it. There's no reason to source common sense.

Well, here are examples of longterm vegans:

http://thevegantruth.blogspot.ca/2013/03/a-compilation-of-long-term-vegans-our.html

thevegantruth? 😹 Yeah, you can have an unhealthy diet a long time before the reaper comes calling or your body starts to pay the price for it. Also, I'm not gonna take the word of cultists using their own experience as evidence.

Here's a study/article by legit people.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952

Basically without living in 1st world country and taking sufficient supplements, it's extremely unhealthy because you wouldn't be getting the basic nutritional needs that the human body needs. Even then, you would need to get regular blood work done in order to adjust your diet/supplement intake according to what you're lacking. If a person goes long enough with vitamin and mineral deficiencies, it can easily cause permanent neurological damage and organ damage. Veganism is a moronic diet that's unhealthy but if you want go by that numbnut diet, by all means. Kids are eating tidepods for clicks these days so what's the worse that can happen.



Farsala said:
palou said:

...which ones

 

In general, the composition of plants is a lot more diverse than that of meat. Further off from what you need, individually, but you have all the spikes you need to balance it out, if you do the math. 

 

The "best" diet is one thats varied/balanced, I think.

 

If you're not measuring it, this is probably true.

Stuff has already been said. But lets continue with Protein. What are easy sources of protein in plant sources?

And by Protein I mean:

Histidine

Isoleucine

Leucine

Lysine

Methionine

Phenylalanine

Threonine

Tryptophan

Valine

Arginine

Cysteine

Glutamine

Glycine

Proline

Tyrosine

 

I genuinely would like to know. I am sure they can be found, but easily? I don't think so.

I'll do a couple, bottom up -

Tyrosine, usually biosynthesized, from substances abundantly found in soy.

Proline - whole cabbage family works just fine.

Glycine - none-essential, as it can be synthesized from basic elements.

Glutamine - non-essential.

Cysteine - common, synthesized under normal conditions, otherwise.

Arginine - Beans, nuts, etc..

 

Again, the human body is very good at creating what it needs, most of those can be produced, and are produced under normal circumstances by the metabolism to fit needs.

 

What concerns proteins alone, Soybeans, Quinoa, Chia, Buckwheat, and a couple others contain sufficient amounts of the *essential* amino acids that they are, by themselves, enough to fill the needs, if eaten as sole protein source.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

Aeolus451 said:
VGPolyglot said:

Well, here are examples of longterm vegans:

http://thevegantruth.blogspot.ca/2013/03/a-compilation-of-long-term-vegans-our.html

thevegantruth? 😹 Yeah, you can have an unhealthy diet a long time before the reaper comes calling or your body starts to pay the price for it. Also, I'm not gonna take the word of cultists using their own experience as evidence.

Here's a study/article by legit people.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952

Basically without living in 1st world country and taking sufficient supplements, it's extremely unhealthy because you wouldn't be getting the basic nutritional needs that the human body needs. Even then, you would need to get regular blood work done in order to adjust your diet/supplement intake according to what you're lacking. If a person goes long enough with vitamin and mineral deficiencies, it can easily cause permanent neurological damage and organ damage. Veganism is a moronic diet that's unhealthy but if you want go by that numbnut diet, by all means. Kids are eating tidepods for clicks these days so what's the worse that can happen.

I was showing you an example of providing sources, your post made a claim that long-term vegans had to stop, and I should you that there were vegans who have lived for over 30 years with that diet. I also don't understand what the issue is with taking supplements, supplements exist specifically for that purpose. Also, I don't necessarily promote going all vegan, but I do believe that meat consumption is way too high as it is, considering its environmental effects:

http://cases.open.ubc.ca/environmental-impact-of-meat-consumption/



Vegan "jihadis"? Do you have any contextual understanding of what "jihadi" even means?

The topic title is offensive.

Last edited by Helloplite - on 18 April 2018

VGPolyglot said:
Aeolus451 said:

thevegantruth? 😹 Yeah, you can have an unhealthy diet a long time before the reaper comes calling or your body starts to pay the price for it. Also, I'm not gonna take the word of cultists using their own experience as evidence.

Here's a study/article by legit people.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952

Basically without living in 1st world country and taking sufficient supplements, it's extremely unhealthy because you wouldn't be getting the basic nutritional needs that the human body needs. Even then, you would need to get regular blood work done in order to adjust your diet/supplement intake according to what you're lacking. If a person goes long enough with vitamin and mineral deficiencies, it can easily cause permanent neurological damage and organ damage. Veganism is a moronic diet that's unhealthy but if you want go by that numbnut diet, by all means. Kids are eating tidepods for clicks these days so what's the worse that can happen.

I was showing you an example of providing sources, your post made a claim that long-term vegans had to stop, and I should you that there were vegans who have lived for over 30 years with that diet. I also don't understand what the issue is with taking supplements, supplements exist specifically for that purpose. Also, I don't necessarily promote going all vegan, but I do believe that meat consumption is way too high as it is, considering its environmental effects:

http://cases.open.ubc.ca/environmental-impact-of-meat-consumption/

I never said taking supplements are an issue. It's the diet itself. It's unhealthy yet some people claim it is.  Alot of celebs/youtubers/famous people did it for awhile then quit due to the health issues it caused. I'll update this as I find them. My browser likes to refresh a webpage if I'm on other tabs for too long and want to risk losing what I wrote.

Blaire White. 10 years.

Andy Warski. I think a few years.

Bill clinton.

Anne Hathaway.

I got lazy (too many blogs) and went a different route.

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-reveals-84-of-vegetarians-return-to-meat

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/most-vegetarians-lapse-after-only-year-180953565/

Last edited by Aeolus451 - on 18 April 2018