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The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

Forums - Movies Discussion - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

NightlyPoe said:

Luke walking away, deciding that the Jedi are a part of the problem, is a perfectly valid take on the character.  Particularly considering he's 30+ years older and would naturally have changed from the man we'd last seen.

This is a problem writers have had with their audience for years.  They try to craft real emotions and flaws into their characters, but the audience rejects them because of how difficult it is to understand that sometimes the characters react in surprising ways to adversity.  X character would never do that, but that's not true.  We've all got our issues.  Luke isn't even a gray character, he's simply a broken one.  In his own way, he's still serving the Light by removing himself from the equation.

No man...  

Just...   NO.



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thismeintiel said:

Go out and murder his nephew properly?  Someone doesn't get Luke.  Sigh, indeed.

Considering I was arguing that it's plausible that he wouldn't, all it means is that you didn't understand what I said.

thismeintiel said:

I have a better analogy.  It would be more like if in IW, Thanos made himself known and started destroying the world looking for the Infinity Stones, and while everyone is gearing up to defend the galaxy, Tony Stark is no where to be seen.  When they do find him, he's pouting like a baby because his actions may have helped get his best friend, Rhodes, almost dead and definitely paralyzed.  In the end, he sends one of his suits to some weak ass battle that accomplishes little, but then he dies by his own hand.

Not only would people not accept that and hate on the film, but it betrays his character.  He is an optimist, just like Luke.  Instead, he made his friend an exoskeleton that allows him to walk, again.  The same goes for Luke.  He would not go to some island to pout like a baby.  He'd do something about his screw up.  Even if it meant he had to die in the process of trying to save his nephew and the galaxy.

Do you know anything about Iron Man's history?  The guy was driven into alcoholism under the stress of being Iron Man and pressure being put on his business.  He literally was a homeless drunk on the street for a time, much worse off than Luke ever became.

In the MCU, Tony Stark breaking down under the stress and quitting is not only possible, but his PTSD from the Battle of New York has left him very erratic, switching between creating murder bots, putting a leash on himself and his fellow heroes, and, yes, even outright quitting as Iron Man for a time (something they never bothered to address).

thismeintiel said:
Luke loves his sister and his best friends, and people in general.  He risked his life to save theirs when both Yoda and Obi Wan said he may need to sacrifice them so he may become strong enough.  He's not just going to cry in the corner when Snoke and the Order are going to kill billions, if not trillions, of people if they try to resist.  Including the people he loves and would give his life for.

That was 30+ years ago.  Isn't it just the least bit possible that Luke had lost faith in himself?  That the certainty of youth had burned itself out and the magnitude of his failure left him broken?  When Rey comes to him, he flat out says that he's got nothing to contribute.  That he can't just wave his laser sword and turn the tide of the war.  Except...

thismeintiel said:

Rian Johnson may have a boner for nihilism and subversion for subversion sake, but that doesn't make him deep.  And it sure as hell doesn't make him right

And here's where you miss the most important part.  Rian Johnson wasn't being nihilistic or subversive at all.  Throughout the story, yes Luke doubts his value as a legend.  This is true.  He did something great once, but he's realized that he's just a man.  But you missed the moral of the story.  Luke's greatest legacy is his value as a legend, and that remains untouched by the failings of the man.  The children sitting around late at night telling stories of Luke's bravery are his legacy, the passing down of the Jedi way.  He's a beacon of hope moving forward that generations will follow.  He could wave his laser sword and make a difference, even if he couldn't singlehandedly crush the First Order by himself.

Johnson, far from subverting everything Luke represents, tells a tale challenging the notion of a legend but ultimately verifying its value and durability.  Luke Skywalker is an idea that cannot be destroyed.  Not even by the man himself.

Luke's story is easily one of the highlights of The Last Jedi.  It's unfortunately that anyone would cross their arms at the very idea of a less than perfect Luke and dismiss it just based on that.



irstupid said:
Curious how I'm going to look at Star Wars in the future.

I've heard good things about Solo movie, or at least not really bad things like Last Jedi. I do not like the direction the main series is heading. If the continue in this direction, I can almost see me ignoring the main series and thinking of them as like non-canon. Just keeping Episodes 1-6 and funy enough these side stories. So far Rogue One and Solo seem to fit and not piss anyone off. A Boba Fett and Obi Wan movie could also be fine.

So strangely I'm looking more forward to the "Star Wars Story" movies than the episodic movies.

  Solo suffers from two problems.  One, it's just a mediocre film.  One that feels the need to explore every single part of Solo's past (except for Jabba, for some reason), including some dumb reason why he is called Solo, instead of that just being his name.  Two, and more importantly, it came out after TLJ.  That movie was just so disappointing to so many fans that they are just done with the series.  Something Lucas couldn't even do with his underwhelming prequels, Disney has done with just one poor excuse for a film.



thismeintiel said:
irstupid said:
Curious how I'm going to look at Star Wars in the future.

I've heard good things about Solo movie, or at least not really bad things like Last Jedi. I do not like the direction the main series is heading. If the continue in this direction, I can almost see me ignoring the main series and thinking of them as like non-canon. Just keeping Episodes 1-6 and funy enough these side stories. So far Rogue One and Solo seem to fit and not piss anyone off. A Boba Fett and Obi Wan movie could also be fine.

So strangely I'm looking more forward to the "Star Wars Story" movies than the episodic movies.

  Solo suffers from two problems.  One, it's just a mediocre film.  One that feels the need to explore every single part of Solo's past (except for Jabba, for some reason), including some dumb reason why he is called Solo, instead of that just being his name.  Two, and more importantly, it came out after TLJ.  That movie was just so disappointing to so many fans that they are just done with the series.  Something Lucas couldn't even do with his underwhelming prequels, Disney has done with just one poor excuse for a film.

Yea pretty amazing what they did with the new movies. They had the world by the balls after the Force Awakens. Then the last jedi comes out and people are nearly done with the whoel franchise as a whole. It's amazing. Like you said, as much shit as the prequels got and continues to get, they still didn't turn people away from the series.

I always consider a franchise that someone loves like having sex. You may have a bad experience once in a while, but nothing that will keep you from wanting to ever have sex again. The Last Jedi somehow managed to do that. It's like the Last Jedi raped us, and we are now scarred from ever getting intimate again.



irstupid said:
thismeintiel said:

  Solo suffers from two problems.  One, it's just a mediocre film.  One that feels the need to explore every single part of Solo's past (except for Jabba, for some reason), including some dumb reason why he is called Solo, instead of that just being his name.  Two, and more importantly, it came out after TLJ.  That movie was just so disappointing to so many fans that they are just done with the series.  Something Lucas couldn't even do with his underwhelming prequels, Disney has done with just one poor excuse for a film.

Yea pretty amazing what they did with the new movies. They had the world by the balls after the Force Awakens. Then the last jedi comes out and people are nearly done with the whoel franchise as a whole. It's amazing. Like you said, as much shit as the prequels got and continues to get, they still didn't turn people away from the series.

I always consider a franchise that someone loves like having sex. You may have a bad experience once in a while, but nothing that will keep you from wanting to ever have sex again. The Last Jedi somehow managed to do that. It's like the Last Jedi raped us, and we are now scarred from ever getting intimate again.

Yea, I don't think I've seen a fan backlash this fast and strong.  You start with a record setting film, that while not perfect, at least felt like a SW film and set up some good mysteries.  Then you have a friggin spinoff make more than $1B.  That's a strong brand.  But, then you have a main entry that is so bad, you make ~$400M WW less than the lower end estimates.  It lasts two weeks shorter in theaters than the spinoff.  In fact, after the first two weeks, RO made slightly more money than TLJ did.  Not only that, but it also lead to much lower merch sales.  And then that leads into the first ever SW flop, which will cost the studio ~$80M just from the production budget.  Add in the marketing and it's probably more like $180M.

And I really see nothing coming from Disney signaling that they have actually accepted the backlash and are going to change course.  I think it's going to take Ep 9 making only $900M-$1B WW before they actually do something.



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haxxiy said:

That's hardly a comparison, A New Hope had grossed less than Empire Strikes Back after a full year on theaters and only made up the difference on multiple re-releases as it was standard for movies up to the 70's. It indeed happened with the Prequel and Sequel trilogies but a sample of two is a coincidence, not a pattern. Poor reception and declining interest tend to explain those lesser sales much better since we indeed have plenty of examples of this happening across various mediae instead.

The bolded is completely false. The original Star Wars was a slow burn over an 18-month span, but it grossed more in its first five months than ESB did lifetime. A New Hope's inflation-adjusted gross for its original run is over $1.3 billion (again, that's original run, and doesn't include the 1982 reissue or 1997 special edition). Fact is, neither ESB nor ROTJ were as successful as the original.  There were a lot of people that saw the original that either didn't go see ESB during its initial run, or didn't do as many repeat visits, resulting in a 45% drop versus ANH. The length of their theatrical runs were no excuse, either. ROTJ had a run of only 9 months, but it had already made nearly all the money it was going to make. Even back when movies were less front-loaded and often had longer runs, eventually they stop making any appreciable amount of money.

The simple fact is that A New Hope was one of those films that was a once or twice in a decade phenomenon, selling over 140 million tickets in a nation with only 220 million people (or about 65 tickets for every 100 Americans, a feat exceeded only by Gone with the Wind and The Sound of Music). It was a generation-defining film, and did things that were absolutely mind-blowing back in 1977. Empire meanwhile, though now regarded a classic in its own right and possibly the best in the series, wasn't a pop culture phenomena of the same magnitude. To 1980 audiences it obviously wasn't anything groundbreaking like the original was. Just a very good movie that happened to continue the story of the characters from A New Hope.

The Phantom Menace is later released to massive hype, being the first new Star Wars movie in 16 years, and it became one of the highest-grossing movies ever. Same for The Force Awakens. It was the biggest hit of the past 20 years by far (and fifth-biggest since 1975) and the first new Star Wars film in a decade. The buzz was massive, the trailers showing things that hearkened back to the original trilogy, and ending with Han and Chewie showing up on the Falcon to proclaim "We're home."

In each case, these three entries in the Saga all had something going for them to make them massive hits, and their respective sequels were never going to have the same massive hype. Nobody should have expected TLJ to make $800+ million domestic and be a massive juggernaut overseas simply because TFA was.



Well, I guess the Last Jedi won some more awards at the Saturn awards.

Continues to prove that critics and award givers are biased and bought and paid for by the Mouse.



irstupid said:
Well, I guess the Last Jedi won some more awards at the Saturn awards.

Continues to prove that critics and award givers are biased and bought and paid for by the Mouse.

It's absolutely fascinating how much of a disconnect there is between critics and media versus a majority of the general audience. That Last Jedi could win any awards is baffling to me



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irstupid said:
Well, I guess the Last Jedi won some more awards at the Saturn awards.

Continues to prove that critics and award givers are biased and bought and paid for by the Mouse.

Never heard of 'em.

What were these awards? Were they for storytelling?



irstupid said:
Well, I guess the Last Jedi won some more awards at the Saturn awards.

Continues to prove that critics and award givers are biased and bought and paid for by the Mouse.

Very true. I mean, other than visuals what was good about the film? The made for TV movie/show main plot of running out of gas in a snail race? The complete lack of character arcs? A subplot that felt like it was from a kid's film, including on the nose messages. Out of place humor, which more often than not failed to land.