By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo's Evolution from Gamecube to Switch (...was pre-mediated imho)

Tagged games:

Very good analysis!



Around the Network
Mandalore76 said:
bdbdbd said:

Nah, you understood it. Looks like the guy himself who wrote the paragraph did not understand the consept he wrote about. 

You know, that paragraph sounds more like an excuse. Most often the problem isn't technology, but the product being bad. The thing is, that videogames industry isn't about tech, but games. Instead of tech business, it is entertanment business. And, I'm not saying here that Virtual Boy wasn't bad hardware. 

I wasn't speaking to the "asymmetric gameplay" factor.  I was referring to that being the jumping off point of merging console and handheld into a single platform.  The Super Gameboy and Gameboy Player allowed you to play your handheld games on your tv through your console.  But, connecting the Gameboy Advance to the GameCube through the link cable blurred that line between console and handheld for the first time.  It was asymmetric at the time, because the console power aspect couldn't be replicated on the go yet.

And, I was also speaking to Nintendo's dedication to local co-op and keeping gamers playing and experiencing games together in person.  

         

And, yes, there are times where ideas are developed before the technology exists to replicate it.  Especially when there is a need to keep price of a product low enough to maintain consumer interest.  Sometimes you have to make a choice between cutting edge tech that would price yourself into a niche market, or delivering something more cost effective that doesn't fully convey the idea you wanted to deliver.  There are pros and cons of each strategy.  But, as cost of technology decreases over time, yes you can revisit those old ideas and put out a better product that more fully realizes the potential of your original vision.

It did not blur the line the slightest. I could understand the argument IF you had been able to play GBA games on a TV and a GC controller with the link cable,

Yeah, it is the product that is bad if you can't make it work with the existing tech. Just because you have a vision of a product that can't be done doesn't make you a genious. I have vision of, say Star Trek warp drive, but apparently I'm just ahead of my time, so I make a crappy rocket that works on propulsion to be fired on the sky on a new year's eve. Am I a genious who's just ahead of my time, or do I just make shitty fireworks? It's one thing to have a vision and wait for the tech to be there, than release something half-assed that has no real change to succeed.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

bdbdbd said:
Mandalore76 said:

I wasn't speaking to the "asymmetric gameplay" factor.  I was referring to that being the jumping off point of merging console and handheld into a single platform.  The Super Gameboy and Gameboy Player allowed you to play your handheld games on your tv through your console.  But, connecting the Gameboy Advance to the GameCube through the link cable blurred that line between console and handheld for the first time.  It was asymmetric at the time, because the console power aspect couldn't be replicated on the go yet.

And, I was also speaking to Nintendo's dedication to local co-op and keeping gamers playing and experiencing games together in person.  

         

And, yes, there are times where ideas are developed before the technology exists to replicate it.  Especially when there is a need to keep price of a product low enough to maintain consumer interest.  Sometimes you have to make a choice between cutting edge tech that would price yourself into a niche market, or delivering something more cost effective that doesn't fully convey the idea you wanted to deliver.  There are pros and cons of each strategy.  But, as cost of technology decreases over time, yes you can revisit those old ideas and put out a better product that more fully realizes the potential of your original vision.

It did not blur the line the slightest. I could understand the argument IF you had been able to play GBA games on a TV and a GC controller with the link cable,

Yeah, it is the product that is bad if you can't make it work with the existing tech. Just because you have a vision of a product that can't be done doesn't make you a genious. I have vision of, say Star Trek warp drive, but apparently I'm just ahead of my time, so I make a crappy rocket that works on propulsion to be fired on the sky on a new year's eve. Am I a genious who's just ahead of my time, or do I just make shitty fireworks? It's one thing to have a vision and wait for the tech to be there, than release something half-assed that has no real change to succeed.

You could play GBA games on a TV and GC Controller with the Gameboy Player which I mentioned.

As for the rest of post, the following quote comes to mind:

“We learn wisdom from failure much more than from success. We often discover what will do, by finding out what will not do; and probably he who never made a mistake never made a discovery”

Samuel Smiles, The Lives Of George And Robert Stephenson



Mandalore76 said:
bdbdbd said:

It did not blur the line the slightest. I could understand the argument IF you had been able to play GBA games on a TV and a GC controller with the link cable,

Yeah, it is the product that is bad if you can't make it work with the existing tech. Just because you have a vision of a product that can't be done doesn't make you a genious. I have vision of, say Star Trek warp drive, but apparently I'm just ahead of my time, so I make a crappy rocket that works on propulsion to be fired on the sky on a new year's eve. Am I a genious who's just ahead of my time, or do I just make shitty fireworks? It's one thing to have a vision and wait for the tech to be there, than release something half-assed that has no real change to succeed.

You could play GBA games on a TV and GC Controller with the Gameboy Player which I mentioned.

As for the rest of post, the following quote comes to mind:

“We learn wisdom from failure much more than from success. We often discover what will do, by finding out what will not do; and probably he who never made a mistake never made a discovery”

Samuel Smiles, The Lives Of George And Robert Stephenson

You know, the problem with your logic is that you think:

1. This is a hardware issue

2. Handheld and home console markets are two separate markets

The reason for the Gameboy player, and Super Gameboy, was to access the Gameboy games on your system, because the Snes and Gamecube games were different games than GB and GBA games. If you liked A Link to the Past, chances were high that you bought Link's Awakening, if you had system to do so. Back in the day the third party games of the same name were different games on different systems; NES version was different game than Snes version, that was different than Megadrive version, and so on.

The reason for Switch to exist, is to have a system you don't need to develop the same games for two separate systems. Cost of game development have been Nintendo's primary concern for the whole 2000's, if you haven't paid attention. It was no problem back in the day to make a game for Snes, that was followed by Gameboy counterpart soon after, because it didn't cost that much money and time to make it, but as development budgets are in the range of tens of millions today, and development taking years in the making, even for the average games on the market, the game development process needs to be streamlined somehow.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

Good catch. Actually everybody is moving one way or the other towards this hybrid approach: take Sony ever since they made the PSP S&L HDMI ready, or MS offering all thier games to be consumed on laptops as well or Apple by simply creating the App Store and Apple TV. This is a natural evolution of the industry, and Nintendo is fully a part of it.



Vote the Mayor for Mayor!

Around the Network
hunter_alien said:
Good catch. Actually everybody is moving one way or the other towards this hybrid approach: take Sony ever since they made the PSP S&L HDMI ready, or MS offering all thier games to be consumed on laptops as well or Apple by simply creating the App Store and Apple TV. This is a natural evolution of the industry, and Nintendo is fully a part of it.

It's more like the industry is moving away from TV. Even if you'd think stuff like Chromecast would be a move towards hybrid, it is still using the device that you stream from as an interface, making the "hybrid" approach rather useless.

If you look at the market currently, it looks like Sony is in a rather dire position considering the future, as Sony seems to be only one still locked into a TV. MS has UWP, so you technically can play all the UWP games on all Windows devices, Nintendo has Switch (and 3DS, though I don't think 3DS will be important anymore in the future) that don't require a TV, then there are all the Android devices.

Then again, didn't Kaz take the direction to make "Playstation" a service (not different than Steam) a few years back.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

bdbdbd said:
hunter_alien said:
Good catch. Actually everybody is moving one way or the other towards this hybrid approach: take Sony ever since they made the PSP S&L HDMI ready, or MS offering all thier games to be consumed on laptops as well or Apple by simply creating the App Store and Apple TV. This is a natural evolution of the industry, and Nintendo is fully a part of it.

It's more like the industry is moving away from TV. Even if you'd think stuff like Chromecast would be a move towards hybrid, it is still using the device that you stream from as an interface, making the "hybrid" approach rather useless.

If you look at the market currently, it looks like Sony is in a rather dire position considering the future, as Sony seems to be only one still locked into a TV. MS has UWP, so you technically can play all the UWP games on all Windows devices, Nintendo has Switch (and 3DS, though I don't think 3DS will be important anymore in the future) that don't require a TV, then there are all the Android devices.

Then again, didn't Kaz take the direction to make "Playstation" a service (not different than Steam) a few years back.

Really? I always imagined that PS+ and PSN are a 2-pillar aproach that Sony might capitalize on going forward. IMO when it comes to gaming they are pretty well set in thatr regards. As soon as they have the pricing figured out they should be golden in the age of the post-TV livingroom.



Vote the Mayor for Mayor!

hunter_alien said:
bdbdbd said:

It's more like the industry is moving away from TV. Even if you'd think stuff like Chromecast would be a move towards hybrid, it is still using the device that you stream from as an interface, making the "hybrid" approach rather useless.

If you look at the market currently, it looks like Sony is in a rather dire position considering the future, as Sony seems to be only one still locked into a TV. MS has UWP, so you technically can play all the UWP games on all Windows devices, Nintendo has Switch (and 3DS, though I don't think 3DS will be important anymore in the future) that don't require a TV, then there are all the Android devices.

Then again, didn't Kaz take the direction to make "Playstation" a service (not different than Steam) a few years back.

Really? I always imagined that PS+ and PSN are a 2-pillar aproach that Sony might capitalize on going forward. IMO when it comes to gaming they are pretty well set in thatr regards. As soon as they have the pricing figured out they should be golden in the age of the post-TV livingroom.

I think Kaz agrees you here. The problem is, that in the future the competition is between the different marketplaces on the same device(s). Console manufacturing is lucrative business because of the third party royalties when you succeed, but nothing really guarantees the publishers would be interested in publishing games on Sony's service, as you have other services already to compete with. Or maybe this would be the best thing ever to happen to Playstation and Sony makes more profit than ever with it. Or maybe Sony pulls out PS3,5 similar hybrid to Switch and has a runaway success. In any case, it looks like the dumbed down PC plugged to your TV is slowly coming to an end. 



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

Mandalore76 said:

I know that many like to view Nintendo as a company that chases trends and casuals and has an inconsistent hit or miss success rate with hardware.  Until the launch of the Switch, the success of the Wii was written off as a fluke or aberration sandwiched between the failures of the Gamecube and the Wii U.  I have a different take on this however.  I believe that the Nintendo Switch is a device that Nintendo as a corporation has been working towards going back to the Gamecube era.  It all started with Nintendo's push for "connectivity" of devices and the GBA Link Cable that connected Nintendo's Gameboy Advance handheld to Nintendo's Gamecube home console.

           

This allowed for innovative gameplay ideas utilizing the Gameboy Advance as a 2nd screen for the Gamecube console.  In my opinion, the best utilization of this was done with "Pac-Man Vs." which was developed by Nintendo and published by Namco to bundled into Namco's releases of "Pac-Man World 2", "I Ninja", and "R: Racing Evolution".  The Gameplay of "Pac-Man Vs." consists of 3 players controlling the Ghosts using Gamecube controllers plugged into the Gamecube's first 3 controller ports, while 1 player played as Pac-Man through the Gameboy Advance connected to the Gamecube's 4th controller port via the Link Cable.  (Both the N64 and Gamecube had 4 controller ports built in, and did not require an adapter to be purchased separately for local multiplayer as opposed to other systems of the day)  The 3 Ghost players could see the small surrounding area of their positions on the TV screen (expandable by eating fruit) as they hunt for Pac-Man.  Meanwhile, the Pac-Man player would see the entire maze on the Gamecube screen.  The Ghost players would have to verbally co-ordinate their search of the maze in an effort to trap Pac-Man, while Pac-Man had the advantage of knowing where all the Ghosts were in an effort to remain elusive.  It was an incredibly fun game and completely unique idea for the time.  I had all of the necessary components (Gamecube, Gameboy Advance, the Link Cable, and a copy of "Pac-Man Vs." that came with my purchase of "R: Racing Evolution"), and some of the people who would come over my house would specifically request that I hook everything up for play, or if I could bring over to attach to their Gamecube at home.

   

Unfortunately, "Pac-Man Vs." released late in 2003.  Two years after the release of the Gamecube, and by this point production had already been temporarily halted due to a surplus of unsold stock resulting in a price cut to $99.99.  The PS2 was wildly successful by contrast, and so this flew under many people's radar.  At this time, Nintendo was also beginning to dabble with motion technology.  The original idea was to release motion sensing controllers for the Gamecube.  However, due to the Gamecube's sagging sales, Nintendo executives feared that if released as a peripheral, the motion controllers would likewise fly under gamer's radar similar to the Link Cable.  The decision was made to instead build a new console around the controllers, thereby putting them directly into the hands of every new Nintendo console purchaser.  And thus, the Nintendo Wii was born as the successor to the Gamecube.

https://web.archive.org/web/20081207185136/http://uk.wii.ign.com/mail/2006-01-26.html

The Wii was an instant hit as millions embraced the phenomenon of it's pack-in game "Wii Sports" that allowed you to really feel like you were engaging in what your character was doing on screen from physically throwing punches in boxing, swinging and pitching in baseball, swinging a tennis racket, to actually bowling as well.  Nintendo's decision to build a new console around the Wii-motes, rather than release them as a peripheral to the failing Gamecube was an incredibly wise business move.  It propelled Nintendo to the winner of a console generation for the first time since the SNES.  As huge a phenomenon as the Wii was, however, it was a standard definition console, and hugely underpowered when compared to its HD competitors the PS3 and Xbox 360.  As the years wore on, this became more and more evident while many 3rd Parties dumped uninspired motion control cash-in shovelware.  Nintendo executives were keenly aware that they had to release a new HD console onto the market in order to bring back higher tier 3rd party games and the hardcore console gamer.  Thus, the Wii U began development.  The Wii U's Gamepad, with 2nd screen functionality is immediately reminiscent of the Gameboy Advance's connectivity with the Gamecube through the Link Cable.

 

It is interesting to note, however, that having a screen on a controller was also in the Nintendo mindset during the development of the Nintendo Wii.  One of the original design ideas for the Wii-mote featured both an analog stick and a touchscreen.  Nintendo ended up scrapping this idea, because they believed the Wii-mote should be a simple in design as possible, so that non-gamers would be able to pick it up and not be overwhelmed by a numerous configuration of button inputs.  Another carry over from the Wii into the Wii U Gamepad, was the fact that Nintendo desired an off-tv place to convey messages to the gamer more complex than the Wii's flashing blue-light disk tray.  This was something that was not cost effective in the Wii's cycle, but by the time of the Wii U, the idea had evolved into a full-fledged touchscreen.

https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-Asks/Iwata-Asks-E3-2011-Special-Edition-Wii-U/E3-2011-Special-Edition-Wii-U/2-The-Other-Screen/2-The-Other-Screen-205212.html

In my opinion, the Wii U finally combined the Gameboy Advance and Gamecube into a single cohesive system.  The concept was brilliant.  However, the execution didn't quite nail it.  When first announced, it was conveyed that you could take the Gamepad and continue gaming off-screen anywhere in your house.  In reality, the Wi-Fi communication between Gamepad and Wii U console was actually rather limited.  Walls, floors, and ceilings all interrupt communications.  I've been able to take my Gamepad into the basement and use Netflix or You Tube while working out on my treadmill, but that's if the Gamepad remains perfectly stationary, and therefore would not be practical if playing an actual game.  But, I believe this was just another step in Nintendo's evolutionary cycle.  Nintendo always knew where they wanted to go.  It was just a matter of when they could actually achieve it.  Just like a touchscreen controller was not yet cost-effective/practical for the Wii, Nintendo's dream of a Console/Handheld functionality for the Wii U Gamepad was not yet ready to be achieved either.  The Nintendo Switch, on the other hand, is that perfect marriage.

With the Nintendo Switch, you can console game on your tv.  And when it is time to go out, you can remove the Switch from its dock and seamlessly continue anywhere you want without restriction.  The Switch is proof of concept of the Gameboy Advance connected to the Gamecube via link cable finally delivered into your hands in one package with a unified library.  This becomes even more evident when you consider the fact that "Pac-Man Vs." has even made it's return.

Some consider the Wii a gimmick/fad that allowed Nintendo to "accidentally" recover from the failure of the Gamecube.  A fad that soon wore out and led into Nintendo failing again with the Wii U as they presumably chased another technology craze with tablet gaming.  As the Wii U failed, these people then assume that Nintendo had to rush into develop their newest gimmick, handheld console gaming.  I counter this hypothesis with one of my own.  Nintendo has by design incrementally leading themselves down the path towards the success of the Switch all along ever since the days of the Gamecube. 

  

There were bumps and hiccups along the way.  And a need to be as cost-effective as possible necessitated that they drive for the long end game rather than produce a prohibitively expensive device much sooner.  But, I still believe that the Nintendo Switch was the dream device Nintendo had been planning all along.  Not, something they stumbled onto out of desperation.  Rather than the Switch being a stop-gap console to replace a dying Wii U.  I think the Wii U was the stop gap console meant to bring in some sales in the interim period between the dying Wii and the actual readiness of a Switch launch.  This is why the Wii U never received the massive price-cuts that other systems normally get to increase sales or liquidate inventory.  The Wii U may have been a swing and a miss in the grand scheme of console sales, but it was also a taste of what was to come, and laid the necessary groundwork for its successor.

Please feel free to agree or disagree and share your thoughts.

Man, this was an amazing read!!
Can ia make a video about it?? 
It trully deserves to be exposed. 
For real, Congratulations!!



Chorlin said:

Man, this was an amazing read!!
Can ia make a video about it?? 
It trully deserves to be exposed. 
For real, Congratulations!!

The basic idea in the post is wrong; it makes Switch an hardware issue, when in fact Switch is resolving Nintendo's problem with software output. It is amazing how Nintendo execs shove it straight into people's faces and they still don't get it. Also the Wii's concept was to lower the cost of software development. Ever since the flop that was N64, Nintendo's been attempting to make game development as cheap as possible (sans Wii U).



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.