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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Microsoft pushing EXTREMELY HARD with marketing the one X

Pemalite on 12 November 2017
Frank_kc said:
And here it folks where MS leaves Xbone S owners behind in the dust with gimpy versions of games where they need to upgrade to get the better experience. Very common of MS when they left 360 owners with no games toward end of last generation.....

How the hell is that any different from the Playstation 4 Pro?

Errorist76 said:

That’s the true difference...the gap in CPU power between X1 and X1X is only 30%. The gap between X1X and X2 will be more like 500% or even more.

Citation needed.

Errorist76 said:

While that is true the value proposition has to be regarded. A PSPro for almost half the price (available for 320-340 already, soon going to be 300...X1X additionally needs a big external HDD for those huge games) still offers a pretty close experience. All recent Digital Foundry videos have proven that, in most cases, the differences aren’t major at normal viewing distances and without using a magnifying glass. 

Fake information.
You don't need an external HDD for the games.
The HDD is no more/less limiting than the drives in the regular Xbox One.

There is also a new feature called "Intelligent Delivery" where not all of a game needs to be installed.



The Xbox One X is a massive step up over the Pro, adopting many of the enhancements only found on PC.
That's a fact.

I mean... You once believed that the improved load times and boost mode was enough to justify the Playstation 4 Pro over a regular Playstation 4 console, but that doesn't hold true if the Xbox One X offers more than that? (It's okay, we can all have a change of opinion at some point.)
And I quote:

Errorist76 said:

Even just 1440p is a clearly noticeable improvement and worth the extra cost. 

you also need to take into account that a Pro always comes with a 1TB drive so it needs to be compared to the 1TB slim's price.

Boost mode and faster loading times are even worth it even if one only has got a 1080p TV imho.


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DonFerrari on 12 November 2017
taus90 said:
Zekkyou said:

I don't think that technology exists at all yet, let alone cheaply. The Switch is $300, and even docked it's significantly weaker than a PS4 (which makes sense, it has to fit all its hardware into a portable case). In handheld mode the Switch's GPU is 9~ times slower than a PS4's.

why do u think that? there are many portable devices which are powerful than switch and that too at higher resolutions, e.g Apple's A11 bionic SoC. Not to mention the upcoming AMD Raven Ridge ryzen 5 and 7 APU's which are capable of producing better performance than tegra x1 at just15 watts. Switch maxes out at 18w in docked mode and 10w to 15w watt in handheld mode. So with 10nm Fab process and customizing the apu i m pretty sure sony can extract around 1.5tf of performance at just tdp of 15w.

So we have the technology, but i think its far more likely that Sony and MS have already placed their order of these chips and are customizing for PS5 and X2. 

Well considering the console is like 3 or 4 years away I would say they would have only more or less decided the architeture... the specs defined only like 18-12 months before release to deliver dev versions 6-12m before for they to finish tailoring the game to the specs (because from longer than that they had first expectations for 9th gen, then a target HW and finally a release HW for their release game)



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari on 12 November 2017
chakkra said:
Errorist76 said: 

I hope that’s not going to happen for longer than maybe for the first year or so. I know all that “we’re done with generations” talk but...The next gen CPUs will be on a whole different level and X1X won’t be able to match that nor will the PS4 Pro. I really hope that doesn’t happen since it would slow down progress way too much. Sony has already committed for keeping generations. I really hope MS doesn’t slow down development of things like physics and A.I. that way.

Well, we saw a jump of 8 times in TFs from PS3 to PS4.  So If we expect a similar jump from X1 to X2 then that means the X2 is gonna be barely twice as powerful as an X1X.

So the gap between the XoneX and the X2 should be A LOT smaller than the gap we have today between Xone and X1X.

Besides, when MS and Sony announced they were moving to the X86 arquitecture, I remember many developers applauding the move because that way they wouldn't have to start from scratch with every generation.

So yes, I totally believe that when 9th gen comes for MS, the X1X is gonna be their cheapest option to play the same games.  Just like Xone is their cheapest option now.

Nope some of the solutions X1X used would probably make it a PS3 of sort, which never could really hit the lowest price previous console of the company made.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Errorist76 on 12 November 2017
Pemalite said:
Frank_kc said:
And here it folks where MS leaves Xbone S owners behind in the dust with gimpy versions of games where they need to upgrade to get the better experience. Very common of MS when they left 360 owners with no games toward end of last generation.....

How the hell is that any different from the Playstation 4 Pro?

Errorist76 said:

That’s the true difference...the gap in CPU power between X1 and X1X is only 30%. The gap between X1X and X2 will be more like 500% or even more.

Citation needed.

Errorist76 said:

While that is true the value proposition has to be regarded. A PSPro for almost half the price (available for 320-340 already, soon going to be 300...X1X additionally needs a big external HDD for those huge games) still offers a pretty close experience. All recent Digital Foundry videos have proven that, in most cases, the differences aren’t major at normal viewing distances and without using a magnifying glass. 

Fake information.
You don't need an external HDD for the games.
The HDD is no more/less limiting than the drives in the regular Xbox One.

There is also a new feature called "Intelligent Delivery" where not all of a game needs to be installed.



The Xbox One X is a massive step up over the Pro, adopting many of the enhancements only found on PC.
That's a fact.

I mean... You once believed that the improved load times and boost mode was enough to justify the Playstation 4 Pro over a regular Playstation 4 console, but that doesn't hold true if the Xbox One X offers more than that? (It's okay, we can all have a change of opinion at some point.)
And I quote:

Errorist76 said:

Even just 1440p is a clearly noticeable improvement and worth the extra cost. 

you also need to take into account that a Pro always comes with a 1TB drive so it needs to be compared to the 1TB slim's price.

Boost mode and faster loading times are even worth it even if one only has got a 1080p TV imho.

 

Oh,hi there...NSA impersonated.

 

The difference is obvious.

The Pro offered a moderate enhancement for 4K users at just 50 dollars more. (1TB PS4 was 349,- at release. 1TB Pro was 399,-)

It enhances games without making base unit users feel like they’re using the far inferior machine. All this without massively increasing the file sizes of its games.

 

The X1X though has such a huge GPU power gap it makes base X1 look terrible in comparison. I’d feel really bad if I had paid 500 for one just 4 years ago.

It’s also not 50 but 300 dollars more expensive than the base unit at launch.

Additionally it blows up game sizes to huge amounts, 100-150 GB in some cases, which not only leads to problems with HDD space, download times and data caps, but also longer loading times as reported for Shadow Of War and Wolfenstein 2. Those 4K textures simply take their toll.

This “intelligent delivery” feature you’re talking about is nothing more than a damage control story atm, that MS is looking into. Everybody who knows what a pain install times on X1 are, knows that’s gonna be a problem, even more so for people with slower internet connections.

 

If you really doubt next gen will offer at least a 500% boost in CPU performance, just compare a 4 year old Jaguar core to today’s Ryzen.

Last edited by Errorist76 - on 12 November 2017

Pemalite on 12 November 2017
Errorist76 said:

Oh, now I see what type you are...NSA impersonated.

No need for conspiracy theories.

Errorist76 said:
It enhances games without making base unit users feel like they’re using the far inferior machine. All this without massively increasing the file sizes of its games.

The X1X has such a huge GPU power gap it makes base X1 look terrible in comparison. I’d feel really bad if I paid 500 for one just 4 years ago.

Do you honestly think Xbox One gamers actually care? It's common knowledge that the Xbox One and Xbox One S was the technically inferior machine next to the Playstation 4. If it didn't bother Xbox One gamers then, why would they give a crap now? Think about it.

Besides. The Playstation 4 Pro is the technically superior platform compared to the Playstation 4. No sugar coating it there.
And the Xbox One X is the technically superior platform compared to the Playstation 4 and Playstation 4 Pro. That's life.

The Xbox One's performance never changed for the worst.
If someone paid $500 for their console 4 years ago, then they have gotten their money's worth.
You are NOT entitled to have the fastest console ever in a product lineup for eternity you know... There is this thing called "Progression".  - It does actually happen.

To put it bluntly...
If someone complains about the Xbox One X's superior capabilities relative to it's predecessor...
But then champions the Playstation 4 Pro's superior capabilities relative to it's predecessor...

Then they are a hypocrite with double standards, short and simple. - Ask yourself if that apply's to you or if I have simply misconstrued your statements.


Errorist76 said:
Additionally it blows up game sizes to huge amounts, 100-150 GB in some cases, which not only leads to problems with HDD space, download times and data caps, but also longer loading times as reported for Shadow Of War and Wolfenstein 2.

This “intelligent delivery” feature you’re talking about is nothing more than a damage control story atm, that MS is looking into.

For the love of god. Watch the video I posted. Digital Foundry is credible... Making your false "Damage Control" claim entirely redundant.
Here it is again:


As an Xbox One X owner. Majority of games are under 100GB. Only a few exceptions are over that number.

Errorist76 said:
If you really doubt next gen will offer at least a 500% boost in CPU performance, just compare a 4 year old Jaguar core to today’s Ryzen.

I am not doubting anything, that is a false assertion on your behalf, I am asking for citations that show me how you came to such a conclusion.



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Errorist76 on 12 November 2017
Pemalite said:

 

Errorist76 said:
If you really doubt next gen will offer at least a 500% boost in CPU performance, just compare a 4 year old Jaguar core to today’s Ryzen.

I am not doubting anything, that is a false assertion on your behalf, I am asking for citations that show me how you came to such a conclusion.

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-1700-vs-AMD-Athlon-5350-APU-R3/3917vsm10020

Ok, it’s more like 400%....my bad.

 

So you’ve chosen to completely disregard my arguments for price gap and leaving behind base console users...?! I wonder why.

 

Considering that vid..I’ve read the according DF article about that intelligent delivery a while ago already. It’s a concept in development atm , which they will mostly use for their excessively huge first party titles in order to shrink their sizes. It’s even mandatory, why would anyone understand he has to download 4K assets on his base X1?! It’s crazy X1 users even had to download those updates.

Even DF question many third parties will use it though.

That said it’s still just a concept and not active yet, just like I said.

Last edited by Errorist76 - on 12 November 2017

RandyS86 on 12 November 2017
Errorist76 said:
Pemalite said:

 

I am not doubting anything, that is a false assertion on your behalf, I am asking for citations that show me how you came to such a conclusion.

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-1700-vs-AMD-Athlon-5350-APU-R3/3917vsm10020

Ok, it’s more like 400%....my bad.

 

So you’ve chosen to completely disregard my arguments for price gap and leaving behind base console users...?! I wonder why.

 

Considering that vid..I’ve read the according DF article about that intelligent delivery a while ago already. It’s a concept atm which they will mostly use for their excessively huge first party titles in order to shrink their sizes. It’s even mandatory, why would anyone understand he has to download 4K assets on his base X1?! It’s crazy X1 users even had to download those updates.

Even DF question many third parties will use it though.

That said it’s still just a concept and not active yet, just like I said.

The 5350 Launched at $60.

The 1700 Launched at $329 

Are you seriously comparing those 2 processors?

As for file sizes, I just googled it and the average X1X enhanced game is 20% bigger on 1X vs the base 1 but Microsoft gives you 100% more storage on the 1TB 1X vs the 500GB base model, so that argument is destroyed.

You claim the PS4 Pro is half the price of the 1X but in reality $399 is only 20% less than $499, not 50%.

How would owners of the OG Xbox One feel bad?  The console is 4 years old and Microsoft is giving them the OPTION to upgrade to the most powerful console ever made... All games are compatible between the 2 machine so your argument, again, is invalid.

You also say Sony did the right thing by only offering a marginal upgrade with the Pro... Seriously?  Sony wants $400 for a system that is 2.3 times more powerful than the base PS4 while Microsoft only wants $100 more for a system that is 4.6 times more powerful than the base Xbox One and somehow that translates into Microsoft being the bad guy?

I've seen a lot of hypocritical statements here on VGChartz but nothing tops this. Unreal.



Zekkyou on 12 November 2017
taus90 said:

Oh Nintendo always rip off, but its understandable why they are doing it, as the hardware they have is in partnership with Nvidia. Switch is basically a Nvidia Shield with x1 which is a 20nm chip from 2014. Also why do u need better battery and cooling solution when the heat and power output is as same as a switch, And this is not even on 10nm, even a mass produced snapdragon 835 is outputting 500+ GF at 2k resolution, bring that too 1080p it goes even higher. far better than Switch in docked mode.The only issue I could think of is LPDDR rams bandwidth but again with a closed platform and a fast SDXC card or an onboard nvme solution those can be easily offset.  

Again apple with its A11 chip has showcased that very same thing which you are skeptical about, infact A11 is derived from the PSvita hardware successors which i mentioned in my previous post.. an in house custom design 3 core GPU, based on PowerVR cores and for CPU 4 high power cores and 2 low power cores and that think is outperforming a 2017 mac pro with i5. I am an iOS and Android Developer and the things A11 can do really makes me wish sony should consider a vita2. And if u talk about the price of iphone 8, remember we are talking about apple here.

Also if Sony and MS can redesign a far worse Jaguar APU and produce the result which we have on PS4... u think they cant redesign a far better and more enegy efficient ryzen apu to fit onto a tablet size device?? Bottom line is a system designed around close platform and ability to code directly to hardware will always be better than general purpose device based on the same hardware.

So to clarify: Sony can make a handheld almost a generation jump ahead of a handheld Switch, including enough memory to allow for a collection of portable PS4 games, and it'll cost about the same as a Switch (which costs the high end of 'cheap' for a handheld)?



VAMatt on 12 November 2017
leo-j said:

Will telling people that the one x is the most powerful platform for games affect the sales between PS4 and xbox one? 

Of course it will.  The question is, by how much?  I don't think this is knowable.  



Conina on 12 November 2017

Considering that vid..I’ve read the according DF article about that intelligent delivery a while ago already. It’s a concept in development atm , which they will mostly use for their excessively huge first party titles in order to shrink their sizes. It’s even mandatory, why would anyone understand he has to download 4K assets on his base X1?! It’s crazy X1 users even had to download those updates.

They don't, that's what the video is all about! The Xbox One and Xbox One S don't download 4K assets, unless the users wants it to (f.e. if he is sharing an external HDD between the XBO (S) and XBO X or if he wants to download these assets so they are ready when the Xbox One X arrives).

The optional download of 4K assets is turned off by default on the Xbox One and Xbox One S:

 

The PS4s on the other hand can't (so far) separate between normal patch content and PS4-Pro-only enhancements, so many users of a normal PS4 have to download assets which are only used on PS4 Pros. So you are barking the wrong tree if you are complaining about unnecessary downloads for the base models.