By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Is it time to worry about Austria again?

 

Who should I vote?

ÖVP 16 12.40%
 
SPÖ 13 10.08%
 
FPÖ 39 30.23%
 
Grüne 16 12.40%
 
NEOS 3 2.33%
 
Other 4 3.10%
 
Don't vote 13 10.08%
 
Scoreboard 25 19.38%
 
Total:129
Vinther1991 said:
Kerotan said:

Yeah look I agree but people like Rol are entitled to say the burca should be allowed. Personally I think they should be allowed cover their heads not their faces.  Like if an Irish person goes walking down town wearing a balaclava I'd prefer the police tell him to remove it. 

 

But these people who argue Europe should let them do what they want lose all legitimacy if they don't also equally argue Muslim countries should be completely acceptable of us.  Because we have much stricter rules to follow in their countries then they do here. 

Of course they are entitled to their opinion, I just disagree with them.

You seem to get the challenge we are facing.

Ideally we could make people do as they like and they would integrate themselves, I used to think that would be the , it’s very sympathetic, but it doesn’t work. It’s the tactic we have used the past 50 years without success. Which has resulted in the parallel-society we have, where the darker sides of islam and middle eastern culture, like jew hate, homosexual hate and oppression of women, is way too common.

It's 7% of people in Austria that are Muslims. The numbers are comparable all across Europe except maybe uk. The Islamic "takeover" of Europe is blown way out of proportion



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Around the Network

The Umlaut is strong in this thread.



Why don't you vote in elections, Rol?



RolStoppable said:
Slimebeast said:
Why don't you vote in elections, Rol?

Because it takes effort to vote and ultimately makes no difference. There are three big political parties of which two will form a coalition while every other party is destined to be in the opposition of the government.

Additionally, there are no huge glaring problems that would motivate me to vote for anyone in hopes that something gets fixed. I can live my life without facing any serious issues and the political setup in Austria more or less guarantees that that isn't going to change in any significant manner. The biggest consequence of a government formed by ÖVP and FPÖ will be stricter rules against immigration, but people not being allowed to immigrate doesn't affect me.

Where in Austria do you live?



People that loves to talk about "freedom" now defending the ban of the burqa and suggesting there is nothing racist about it






Around the Network
RolStoppable said:
VGPolyglot said:

Where in Austria do you live?

In the west. Tyrol.

Innsbruck? I heard is beautiful there



Eagle367 said:
Vinther1991 said:

It’s a tool to integrate muslims better into western society, and get rid of the parallel-society we have gotten in Europe. A woman wearing a burqa can’t get a job or interact well with western civilisation in any way. With a burqa ban you clearly show that if you decide to live in Europe, you live in accordance with European culture and leave the female-opressive elements of your middle-eastern culture and religion behind

I don't care if I get banned screw you and your "better" way of living. Same European bullshit that caused the majority of problems we have today thinking they are superior. You think women covered are being oppressed somehow and nude actresses in Hollywood are not? Is there a linear relationship between nudeness and less oppression with a negative slope? You can do your job interact well with others be a role model be independent integrate into any society with or without the buraa this has nothing to do with integration this will only stunt the integration. Why don't you ban hats while you're at it or what the Sikhs wear or the turbans that people from the middle East wear next. 

 

Eagle367 said:
Vinther1991 said:

I said a burqa ban was a good idea (and not racist, you still didn’t explain why it is) I didn’t endorse the way it was implemented in Austria. There is a, I might say, ‘dated’ and unnuanced human right that prohibit any sort of discrimination of a religion, which is why they made the law this way. They could probably still modify it so it works as intended.

The fact that a burqa ban would only target 150 or so is a bad argument not to make it. If only 150 were affected by pedophilia, should that then be legal? A small step in the right direction is still a step in the right direction. Besides, it also has a strong signal value, that we don’t accept religiosly justified female opression.

We don't accept religiously justified female oppression we accept legally justified female oppression. Who are you to decide what cloth is oppressive. I can damn well choose to wear a jacket in summer covered in scarfs it's none of your concern. Forcing people to wear or not to wear something is still oppression. It doesn't work the way you think. If the woman has a choice always had a choice no one forced her not her parents nor spouse not anyone and she still CHOOSES to wear a burqa then there is nothing oppressive about it. What's oppressive is if she wants to wear one but the law prohibits it. It's one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation to come out of any country. You have no problems with atheists and christians raping people in Hollywood you are more concerned about what a woman CHOOSES to wear in Europe. Oh I am Jewish and I am so oppressed I have to wear a hat. Guess what not all Muslim women in Pakistan wear a burqa let alone anywhere on Europe. That alone should tell you something. People wear all sorts of things as long as the law allows it and full on nudity is something else but other than that if KSA lifts the ban today, you will see many women wear what they want. Hell some still do and sometimes they are caught and sometimes they are not. Integrating into society doesn't mean you throw your ideals and culture away. It means you embrace the good of both sides and things that don't clash with your ideals and culture. If they clash too much then you probably should just leave the place but last time I checked covering your head with a piece of clothing doesn't clash with any culture. No where does it say people should not wear hats for example. Nuns wear basically the same thing Muslim women do. That is another good question are nuns banned from wearing their clothes?

There are two kinds of women who wear burqas.

1. Those who are enforced to wear a burqa by their husband. I guess we can both agree that it would be great if we could take the burqa away from these women, who do not want to wear them. Which we could with a burqa ban. But this is apparently less important for you than to protect a freedom right of the other type of women...

2. Those who wear burqa voluntarily, because they think they live more in accordance with Islam or their culture of origin or whatever (the burqa is not mentioned in the quran by the way). You think this is such an important right, that you are willing to do nothing for the kinds of women I mentioned in 1. Ideally, yes, it would be a right to wear whatever you'd like, but for me that right has to be restricted when it causes certain problems.In the same way, that it is not allowed to walk around naked in public.

I am not naive enough to believe that women wearing burqa can get a job as easily as everybody else, hiding your face undoubtly restrict what kinds of jobs you can get, it probably even make it impossible to get any. And also I do not think it is a right to hide your identity in public. I would rather have a law that forbids hiding your identity in public, than accept that some women are forced by their husband or local community to hide their identity in public. You can call my view point European arrogance if you like to, but I think it is a good thing that we in our culture meet each other face to face and don't hide underneath burqas, and I expect people who move here to adapt to that.

"We don't accept religiously justified female oppression we accept legally justified female oppression." You could say that yes, there is this idea among you and many others (which must come from a liberalistic ideology), that freedom is above everything, and if no restriction of freedom is enforced by the law, everything will be good, futhermore every way of living should be considered equally good.

Well here is my view on that - total freedom is an illusion. Legal freedom is useless if everybody is living under social/cultural norms that can enforce restrictions on freedom much more effectively than laws could ever do. The only way we have a chance to fight a social/cultural norm is with laws. But for you liberalists, that is such a terrible thing to do.

Eagle367 said:
Vinther1991 said:

Of course they are entitled to their opinion, I just disagree with them.

You seem to get the challenge we are facing.

Ideally we could make people do as they like and they would integrate themselves, I used to think that would be the , it’s very sympathetic, but it doesn’t work. It’s the tactic we have used the past 50 years without success. Which has resulted in the parallel-society we have, where the darker sides of islam and middle eastern culture, like jew hate, homosexual hate and oppression of women, is way too common.

It's 7% of people in Austria that are Muslims. The numbers are comparable all across Europe except maybe uk. The Islamic "takeover" of Europe is blown way out of proportion

To some extent I agree with you on this. Some like to blow the problems out of proportion, we are still pretty far from an Islamic takeover. But it is better to deal with the problems before they become too big. The growing populations in the middle east and Africa along with the unsolved political and cultural tensions in the area as well as global warming will undoubtly cause a lot more migration in the World than we see now. Therefore it is very important that we protect our values, and don't let more people into Europe than we could possibly integrate.



Goodnightmoon said:

People that loves to talk about "freedom" now defending the ban of the burqa and suggesting there is nothing racist about it




Both a burqa ban and the lack of a burqa ban will lead to some restriction on freedom. So, yes I don't deny that a burqa ban is not freedom, I just don't think the alternative is any better.

It is very easy to call something you disagree with racist and demonize an opinion in that way. You have to explain how a burqa ban is racist and who it is racist against. I don't think wearing a burqa is connected to a specific race, perhaps you disagree with that?



Vinther1991 said:
Eagle367 said:

I don't care if I get banned screw you and your "better" way of living. Same European bullshit that caused the majority of problems we have today thinking they are superior. You think women covered are being oppressed somehow and nude actresses in Hollywood are not? Is there a linear relationship between nudeness and less oppression with a negative slope? You can do your job interact well with others be a role model be independent integrate into any society with or without the buraa this has nothing to do with integration this will only stunt the integration. Why don't you ban hats while you're at it or what the Sikhs wear or the turbans that people from the middle East wear next. 

 

Eagle367 said:

We don't accept religiously justified female oppression we accept legally justified female oppression. Who are you to decide what cloth is oppressive. I can damn well choose to wear a jacket in summer covered in scarfs it's none of your concern. Forcing people to wear or not to wear something is still oppression. It doesn't work the way you think. If the woman has a choice always had a choice no one forced her not her parents nor spouse not anyone and she still CHOOSES to wear a burqa then there is nothing oppressive about it. What's oppressive is if she wants to wear one but the law prohibits it. It's one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation to come out of any country. You have no problems with atheists and christians raping people in Hollywood you are more concerned about what a woman CHOOSES to wear in Europe. Oh I am Jewish and I am so oppressed I have to wear a hat. Guess what not all Muslim women in Pakistan wear a burqa let alone anywhere on Europe. That alone should tell you something. People wear all sorts of things as long as the law allows it and full on nudity is something else but other than that if KSA lifts the ban today, you will see many women wear what they want. Hell some still do and sometimes they are caught and sometimes they are not. Integrating into society doesn't mean you throw your ideals and culture away. It means you embrace the good of both sides and things that don't clash with your ideals and culture. If they clash too much then you probably should just leave the place but last time I checked covering your head with a piece of clothing doesn't clash with any culture. No where does it say people should not wear hats for example. Nuns wear basically the same thing Muslim women do. That is another good question are nuns banned from wearing their clothes?

There are two kinds of women who wear burqas.

1. Those who are enforced to wear a burqa by their husband. I guess we can both agree that it would be great if we could take the burqa away from these women, who do not want to wear them. Which we could with a burqa ban. But this is apparently less important for you than to protect a freedom right of the other type of women...

2. Those who wear burqa voluntarily, because they think they live more in accordance with Islam or their culture of origin or whatever (the burqa is not mentioned in the quran by the way). You think this is such an important right, that you are willing to do nothing for the kinds of women I mentioned in 1. Ideally, yes, it would be a right to wear whatever you'd like, but for me that right has to be restricted when it causes certain problems.In the same way, that it is not allowed to walk around naked in public.

I am not naive enough to believe that women wearing burqa can get a job as easily as everybody else, hiding your face undoubtly restrict what kinds of jobs you can get, it probably even make it impossible to get any. And also I do not think it is a right to hide your identity in public. I would rather have a law that forbids hiding your identity in public, than accept that some women are forced by their husband or local community to hide their identity in public. You can call my view point European arrogance if you like to, but I think it is a good thing that we in our culture meet each other face to face and don't hide underneath burqas, and I expect people who move here to adapt to that.

"We don't accept religiously justified female oppression we accept legally justified female oppression." You could say that yes, there is this idea among you and many others (which must come from a liberalistic ideology), that freedom is above everything, and if no restriction of freedom is enforced by the law, everything will be good, futhermore every way of living should be considered equally good.

Well here is my view on that - total freedom is an illusion. Legal freedom is useless if everybody is living under social/cultural norms that can enforce restrictions on freedom much more effectively than laws could ever do. The only way we have a chance to fight a social/cultural norm is with laws. But for you liberalists, that is such a terrible thing to do.

Eagle367 said:

It's 7% of people in Austria that are Muslims. The numbers are comparable all across Europe except maybe uk. The Islamic "takeover" of Europe is blown way out of proportion

To some extent I agree with you on this. Some like to blow the problems out of proportion, we are still pretty far from an Islamic takeover. But it is better to deal with the problems before they become too big. The growing populations in the middle east and Africa along with the unsolved political and cultural tensions in the area as well as global warming will undoubtly cause a lot more migration in the World than we see now. Therefore it is very important that we protect our values, and don't let more people into Europe than we could possibly integrate.

I am no liberal I am just pointing the hypocrisy out. The reason westerners have the worst identify crisis among all of us is because they like to think they are superior in every way and form from the rest of the world. But now that they have to deal with that instead of just conquering them they are having problems with their identity. If you are comfortable in your own skin you wouldn't care about being superior. But whatever the reason may be I don't think a ban on burqa is going to help anyone and it will just hurt those that choose to wear it. I know the difference between hijab and burqa and it's more a cultural thing than a religious thing but it's not helping just like the reverse ban doesn't help anyone in KSA. Just keep in mind the people you criticize the most you are becoming them and this ban is just the start and is a symptom of a larger disease than a singular problem



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Vinther1991 said:
Goodnightmoon said:

People that loves to talk about "freedom" now defending the ban of the burqa and suggesting there is nothing racist about it




Both a burqa ban and the lack of a burqa ban will lead to some restriction on freedom. So, yes I don't deny that a burqa ban is not freedom, I just don't think the alternative is any better.

It is very easy to call something you disagree with racist and demonize an opinion in that way. You have to explain how a burqa ban is racist and who it is racist against. I don't think wearing a burqa is connected to a specific race, perhaps you disagree with that?

I do actually a burqa is more about culture a hijab without the mask is religious just like a nun basically. And the middle Eastern countries have that more so places like Pakistan only have it in really rural regions and I don't think there is that much in Malaysia Indonesia turkey etc I could be wrong. It is more cultural than religious though



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also