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Wiibaron said:
I totally get what you are saying in regards to the nauseated feeling you get. Except I am a gay guy and feel queasy if I see female 'parts'. I also feel weird seeing totally feminine guys at clubs and such. It must be a natural defense[?} mechanism. Not phobic, just not my thing. Just like being left handed, a certain percentage are just born that way. Always were and always will be...

Now this is interesting. Thanks so much for sharing. It's nice to know it goes both ways (no pun intended).



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Goodnightmoon said:
Safiir said:

I may be misunderstanding him but I think he meant bestiality as in animals having sex. Which is not what the word means but I just don't see how gay sex and actual bestiality are comparable. I mean bestiality is problematic waaaaay beyond any estaethical issues.

Well bestiality is humans fucking animals and that's the word he used so I think he talks about that.

No I meant people and animals gives me the same disgust as 2 men. Unless the animal is getting hurt too. Then it would make me angry at the same time.



Locknuts said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Well bestiality is humans fucking animals and that's the word he used so I think he talks about that.

No I meant people and animals gives me the same disgust as 2 men. Unless the animal is getting hurt too. Then it would make me angry at the same time.

People fucking animals give you the same disgust as 2 men fucking, that's what I was saying.



JWeinCom said:
monocle_layton said:

Thanks for the info about its origins. I can see where you're coming from now

Yeah.  The problem is there's no like "first church of atheism", so there are a lot of different ways the terms are used.  Some people do use it like you do, others use weak atheism vs strong atheism, and some people indeed do use agnostic to avoid calling themselves atheists.  I personally find this to be the clearest use of terminology.  

TargaryenVers2 said:

Again, many of those in power use feelings instead of logic to dictate political decisions, because they are voted by the people, which also use gut feelings and what they think is "gross," which is why many states in the US still lags behind regarding lgbt rights (as well as climate change, healthcare, etc), as well as for the longest time racial and sex inequality.

I'm fine with individuals thinking I'm gross, I couldn't care less. The problem is those discomforts internalize for many people and change voting patterns for people that ultimately lead to negative consequences for the lgbt community. 

How do you suggest then that you change those discomforts?  I can think of ways to change laws and make logical arguments, but I really can't think of a way to change those kinds of things.

If it helps, I see creationism as a possibility, but the iron age books seem ridiculous to me. 

 

I also try to operate based on reason and evidence. The greater the claim: the greater the body of evidence required to substantiate it. The claim of 'this is god' would require so much evidence I don't think I could ever believe it.

 

The only conclusion for me is that noone can ever know the nature of god. That is what it means to be agnostic to me: the belief and acceptance that noone will ever know god.



Kaneman! said:
Nem said:

Honestly, i disagree with the both of you.

Firstly, homosexuals make as much sense as all of us existing. It's nature. In the end we all die, the sun explodes, all life dies. The universe is chaotic and humanity is a blip. It doesn't have to make sense outside the context, wich is this planet and evolution of said life. Homosexuality is just like any other genetic condition. It is the product of imperfection, but none of us is the perfect human beeing. As great as DNA is for evolution, it hardly ever gets it right, and homosexuality is not the worst you can have.

I completely agree with this. I'm just saying that it's a deviation from the norm, or mode, whatever you prefer.

Nem said:

Now, the second point, i think is utter foolishness. I don't think a homosexual is any less capable of raising a child than anyone else. There are terrible people out there, wich are infinitly worse human beeings who mistreat children. 

What a child needs is a caring home. Any issue that could arise would arise from external sources (aka discrimination). Caving to them is reinforcing them. So, i am definitly against that reinforcement.

I think you misunderstood me there. I'm not arguing against adoption, I'm arguing against the argument that is nonsensical in that context. You can't flip flop in between answers like that because it fits your narrative, that's all. You can offer a better home to a child, that's perfect, but don't use the argument how natural your relationship is in the next sentence.

I think you misunderstood what i said. There is no norm. There are aproximations of all kinds. If we had to have a norm it would be our general shape. In that regard an homosexual completely fits the norm. It's not an alien you know...

 



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Nem said:

I think you misunderstood what i said. There is no norm. There are aproximations of all kinds. If we had to have a norm it would be our general shape. In that regard an homosexual completely fits the norm. It's not an alien you know...

 

You're generalising. I obviously wasn't speaking to a norm of a complete human being, but the norm of sexual behaviour. Let's say that there's 5% (+/- 5%) of the global population that's homosexual (or bisexual or whatever). In this case 90% or more are heterosexual, thus making it the norm, or more accurate, the statistical mode. Meaning, if you pick people out completely randomly, there's obviously a higher chance to pick a heterosexual person.

And that's ignoring the biological narrative. Because a species is driven to evolution by reproduction, homosexuals can't naturally reproduce if they follow their attraction. That would make homosexuality a mutation.



Kaneman! said:
Nem said:

I think you misunderstood what i said. There is no norm. There are aproximations of all kinds. If we had to have a norm it would be our general shape. In that regard an homosexual completely fits the norm. It's not an alien you know...

 

You're generalising. I obviously wasn't speaking to a norm of a complete human being, but the norm of sexual behaviour. Let's say that there's 5% (+/- 5%) of the global population that's homosexual (or bisexual or whatever). In this case 90% or more are heterosexual, thus making it the norm, or more accurate, the statistical mode. Meaning, if you pick people out completely randomly, there's obviously a higher chance to pick a heterosexual person.

And that's ignoring the biological narrative. Because a species is driven to evolution by reproduction, homosexuals can't naturally reproduce if they follow their attraction. That would make homosexuality a mutation.

But that's a silly distinction to make. So... say most people have brown eyes therefore those that don't are outside the norm. See, you make it sound like theres only 1 right or correct way to be, wich is the majorities. That is simply not the case. Every species atribute begins in the majority until natural selection leads to it's extinction (it may come back, but in very small numbers). After all this time, homosexuality still exists in a very considerable number. This means it is part of the norm, as you put it. 

The species is the whole btw. It's not just the majority. You can't write off a significant part of the population because they have blue eyes or because they have a different sexual inclination.



Nem said:

But that's a silly distinction to make. So... say most people have brown eyes therefore those that don't are outside the norm. See, you make it sound like theres only 1 right or correct way to be, wich is the majorities. That is simply not the case. Every species atribute begins in the majority until natural selection leads to it's extinction (it may come back, but in very small numbers). After all this time, homosexuality still exists in a very considerable number. This means it is part of the norm, as you put it. 

No, no. I'm not implying that one way is more right or correct than the other, just that one is prevalent to the other, thereby making it the norm. I'm not claiming anyone's better, just that there's inherent differences in the sexual behaviour between those groups of people.

And secondly, that's not how mutations work. I personally don't know if sexuality is genetic, as at least in some cases it appears that the influence in the personal development phase might modify it. But if it is entirely genetic, then it's a negative genetic mutation/trait, because it disables reproduction. So let's stop here, we might go on theorizing how and why that is, but we eventually won't get anywhere.



Kaneman! said:
Nem said:

But that's a silly distinction to make. So... say most people have brown eyes therefore those that don't are outside the norm. See, you make it sound like theres only 1 right or correct way to be, wich is the majorities. That is simply not the case. Every species atribute begins in the majority until natural selection leads to it's extinction (it may come back, but in very small numbers). After all this time, homosexuality still exists in a very considerable number. This means it is part of the norm, as you put it. 

No, no. I'm not implying that one way is more right or correct than the other, just that one is prevalent to the other, thereby making it the norm. I'm not claiming anyone's better, just that there's inherent differences in the sexual behaviour between those groups of people.

And secondly, that's not how mutations work. I personally don't know if sexuality is genetic, as at least in some cases it appears that the influence in the personal development phase might modify it. But if it is entirely genetic, then it's a negative genetic mutation/trait, because it disables reproduction. So let's stop here, we might go on theorizing how and why that is, but we eventually won't get anywhere.

That's a very simplistic look at things, if it's genetic it doesn't need to be negative, you don't know in what ways this could affect the species as a whole in benefitial ways, if there was bad for the species then nature would have erased this behaviour and it hasn't, for milions of years it has been part of many species with no negative repercusions. 



Goodnightmoon said:
Safiir said:

Again - if you find watching two ugly/fat/old people have sex disgusting does that make you uglophob/fatofob/oldofob (yeah I just made those up)? You don't have to like something in order to accept it. And tbh suggesting this kind of thought policing is extremely disturbing. Everyone has the right to think anything as long as they don't act on those thoughts in a harmful manner.

Watching 2 ugly persons fucking doesn't wake up in me the same feelings I could have watching bestiality. At all.

But still is being disgusted by gay porn or sexual actions between two males the equivalent of being homophobe. It is simply a yes or no question OP is asking? 



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar