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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Native 4K or Checkerboard "uprendered" 4k

Chazore said:
Slimebeast said:

I would love it on my PC GPUs in the future. I love this technique because it solves the problem of diminishing returns with true native 4K. Native 4K simply isn't worth the x3-4 times investment in hardware power versus a 1080p image at this point, when GPUs already struggle to run modern games smoothly in high settings.

The idea to generate a checkerboard 4K image with only twice the hardware power is genious. True 4K does not look "twice as good" as the checkerboard 4K of PS4 Pro.

If I had a GTX 1080 PC that allowed this, I would choose the checkerboard upscaled 4K and run it in 60fps, instead of gaming in true 4K in 30fps. Nearly everyone would.

I wouldn't due to the blur it gives off. When I look at native 4k shots I see crisp detail, especially to games of old than what the "checkerboard" form deals in.

No, it's not blurry. Read the Eurogamer article about how it works. It is not anymore blurry than a native 4K image.

EDIT: well, apparently in the Tomb Raider comparison above the PS4 Pro version is quite blurry lol
It is not supposed to be blurry with this checkerboard technique, but I'll be damned... blurry it is.



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Slimebeast said:
Chazore said:

I wouldn't due to the blur it gives off. When I look at native 4k shots I see crisp detail, especially to games of old than what the "checkerboard" form deals in.

No, it's not blurry. Read the Eurogamer article about how it works. It is not anymore blurry than a native 4K image.

EDIT: well, apparently in the Tomb Raider comparison above the PS4 Pro version is quite blurry lol
It is not supposed to be blurry with this checkerboard technique, but I'll be damned... blurry it is.

It is, even if you choose to ignore the differences:



Slimebeast said:
Chazore said:

I wouldn't due to the blur it gives off. When I look at native 4k shots I see crisp detail, especially to games of old than what the "checkerboard" form deals in.

No, it's not blurry. Read the Eurogamer article about how it works. It is not anymore blurry than a native 4K image.

EDIT: well, apparently in the Tomb Raider comparison above the PS4 Pro version is quite blurry lol
It is not supposed to be blurry with this checkerboard technique, but I'll be damned... blurry it is.

The image is originally rendered with half the resolution of 4k. Then they fill the missing dots with their patented mathematical algorithm *cough* marketing bollocks *cough* to upscale the image on a 4k TV / Monitor. An upscalled image always tends to appear blurry.

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/upscaled-1080P-vs-4K



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

Conina said:
Slimebeast said:

No, it's not blurry. Read the Eurogamer article about how it works. It is not anymore blurry than a native 4K image.

EDIT: well, apparently in the Tomb Raider comparison above the PS4 Pro version is quite blurry lol
It is not supposed to be blurry with this checkerboard technique, but I'll be damned... blurry it is.

It is, even if you choose to ignore the differences:

Yes, I'm shocked that the difference is so big.



Peh said:
Slimebeast said:

No, it's not blurry. Read the Eurogamer article about how it works. It is not anymore blurry than a native 4K image.

EDIT: well, apparently in the Tomb Raider comparison above the PS4 Pro version is quite blurry lol
It is not supposed to be blurry with this checkerboard technique, but I'll be damned... blurry it is.

The image is originally rendered with half the resolution of 4k. Then they fill the missing dots with their patented mathematical algorithm *cough* marketing bollocks *cough* to upscale the image on a 4k TV / Monitor. An upscalled image always tends to appear blurry.

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/upscaled-1080P-vs-4K

No, not always blurry. Some upscaling algorithms can avoid blurring, but at the expense of getting some other types of articfacts instead of course. And in Eurogamer's article it seemed as if Sony's "checkerboard" algorithm would be very good to avoid blur. Eurogamer made it sound almost revolutionary.

Apparently that's not the case lol



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I wish PC graphics cards could do this tbh.



Slimebeast said:
Conina said:

It is, even if you choose to ignore the differences:

 

Yes, I'm shocked that the difference is so big.

So big? First off looking at pics like that isnt a great way to make comparisons. But even if it were, let's face it.... in he real world who zooms in to look at their screen when playing games. In motion will we even notice that? 

And as for the "details".... I don't know why this happens, and it's probably what gets to me about these kinda arguments. When our Well in the know enthusiast PC folks make these arguments they have a way of developing some sort of selective knowledge that only highlights what point they are trying to make. How is it possible that none of them has mentioned that even if the PS4pro offers a rez bump, the "PS4" version of the game can still be using a lower resolution of textures compared to those used in a PC running g the ssme game at ultra. No matter how good a rez bump you have, lower rez textures will still not look as good as higher rez textures. 

Peh said:
Slimebeast said:

No, it's not blurry. Read the Eurogamer article about how it works. It is not anymore blurry than a native 4K image.

EDIT: well, apparently in the Tomb Raider comparison above the PS4 Pro version is quite blurry lol
It is not supposed to be blurry with this checkerboard technique, but I'll be damned... blurry it is.

The image is originally rendered with half the resolution of 4k. Then they fill the missing dots with their patented mathematical algorithm *cough* marketing bollocks *cough* to upscale the image on a 4k TV / Monitor. An upscalled image always tends to appear blurry.

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/upscaled-1080P-vs-4K

It's one thing to be spitting marketing BS, it's another thing to customize a GPU and add components to it that allows the GPU do a specific task that GPUs typically don't have the hardware to do and patent the tech. 

And there is no doubt that an upscaled image is always gonna be blurrier than a native image. But the point is this;

It's one thing to upscale from 1080p yo 4k (that's making up for 6M absent pixels), it's another thing to upscale from 2*1080p to 4k. In that case you only have to account for 4M pixels. If the results are such that you have to freeze frame and zoom in to spot differences isn't that at the very least somewhat commendable?

And look at XB1 to PS4, 900p to 1080p.... it's already hard enough telling them apart as it is. When looking at 4k and faux4k it's gonna be even harder. 



Guitarguy said:
SvennoJ said:

Imagine a checkerboard, black and white squares alternating.

Frame 1, you render the black squares
Frame 2, you render the white squares

To make a full picture, take the rendered squares, interpolate the non rendered squares using the rendered squares and info from the previous frame when possible.

So basically you render 1920x2160 or 3840x1080 depending on how you look at it. Since the squares are offset each line it's better than interlaced rendering yet still exactly half the number of pixels of 3840x2160.

I don't think this is how it works. What you are referring to is similar to field rendering which is what the early PS2 games used(also why alot of early PS2 games looked jagged). It renders two alternating fields of scanlines(odd and even) per frame and combining the two to create a smooth motion. This allowed developers to render games internally at half the resolution(say 240i/p) and output at 480i/p(the standard back then) with enhanced frame rates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGTR0G2xC1E

Checkerboard rendering is this:



It essentially  averages the neighboring two pixels(diagonal from eachother) and reconstructs one parallel to both. I think this is the basis of it, although I have read it reconstructs 2 pixels for every 2 native pixels which makes sense as 4K contains 4 times the amount of pixels as 1080P(1080P is 1920 by 1080 whilst 4K is 3840 by 2160). There are no alternating pixels popping in or out like with field rendering. So you fill in the black empty areas with reconstructed pixels, giving you 4 times(as 4K/2160P has 4 times the amount of pixels as 1080P) the amount of pixels at much less expense to the GPU compared to native 4K


Yes, that's what I meant by interpolate the non rendered squares using the rendered squares. But I also thought I had read something about temporal interpolation in the Eurogamer article. In static scenes the info from the previous frame can also be used.

Btw I doubt that Scorpio can do native 4K when the same game uses checkerboard 4K on ps4 pro. The ratio between pro and scorpio is about the same as between ps4 and One. Either the pro version will run smoother with more effects or the scorpio version will need to upscale somewhere too. The equivalent checkerboard 1080 is only 72% of 900p, or by the same ratio Checkerboard 4K and about 3264x1836 on Scorpio.



Peh said:

well, apparently in the Tomb Raider comparison above the PS4 Pro version is quite blurry lol
It is not supposed to be blurry with this checkerboard technique, but I'll be damned... blurry it is. 

The Tomb Raider example's blurriness was due to Depth of Field blurring kicking in at a closer distance.
Which does speak to the over-all power of the system, but isn't related to the checkerboard upscaling itself.



JRPGfan said:

I wish PC graphics cards could do this tbh.

Games just need to be coded to use this upscaling technique.  That applies to PS4 Pro as well, they need to use the technique.
I believe I saw a quote from developer Jonathan Blow saying that in fact it isn't 100% free in terms of GPU resources, it's just very efficient, and that depending on the game engine design being used, alot of the data needed to support the calculation will already be generated.

And while PS4 Pro currently has custom hardware which makes it more efficient to use this technique, I'm guessing that even without that hardware, it may still be worthwhile to use, as in more effective than trying to render 2x the number of pixels.   So it will probably show up in PC too.  AMD or even NVIDIA will probably make the fixed-function hardware available, and even those without said video cards could enable the technique if they wish.