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Forums - General Discussion - Is free will a myth?

Eagle367 said:
Well in your sense I think metaphysics delves into that and the hard part is proving or disproving anything since you can't carry out scientific evidence on having a soul or not. Yet when you die, theoretically if all of your cells are brought back to life, you would live again but practically that does not happen and science has a difficulty explaining death so until death is explained I don't think we can truly know free will exists or not. Is the chemical process the causal phenomena or is it caused by something we can't fully comprehend. Are the chemicals just a physical messenger of the body to do the action or are they the ones creating the action directly? I believe in souls so I think free will is there at least in that metaphysical sense but it's not there in a political sense. But that's another discussion altogether

Metaphysics and that soul stuff are those things which people like to hold on to without even knowing what it is. That make it difficult to debate with people like dualists and such.

But I know something that crushes that thinking, and that's the split brain experiment. Get a read on it. It's awesome :)



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Gourmet said:
If you know every single physical constituent of the universe at one moment and all physical laws, you can determine exactly what the universe will look like after any given time. But you can't so it may look like free will exists.

Well, what I'm saying is that from each individual human's perspective, it appears like you have free will. We think we are in control of our own actions. But in reality, it's all a result other factors, so we aren't in control.

 

FYI, the reason that we can't determine exactly what the universe will look like after any given time isn't due to free will existing. It's due to the universe being undeterministic in nature, thanks to quantum physics. Like I stated in the OP, us not having free will does not mean we are on a set path to a set, definite outcome, it just means we can't choose the path nor the outcome.



Wright said:
Peh said:

I don't really understand where you are going.

You can't beat or break the laws of physics. Meaning, you can't move your pinky finger without willing to do so.

 

What if you dream of doing so? What if you dream impossible figures or situations? Is dreaming an act of free will or also a result of physics?

Everything is a result of physics. Dreams are a result of your brain and thus physical. I don't believe in metaphyics. Everything what you experience on this world is phyiscal.

What you actually see in dreams is the power of imagination. I am a lucid dreamer. Therefor I am pretty aware of what my brain can do and sometimes it still surprises me. Therefor I can fly in my dream if I remember to do so or being remembered to do so. I also notice that certain dreams during one night repeat several times. Because I am consciousness about dreaming, I also remember what I did the last time and can chance the course of the dream for the second time. It's still difficult to do so.

But what a brain cannot do, is imagine something it doesn't know.

If you never saw what a tree looks like, you won't be able to imagine one. What a brain can do, depening on the intelligence level is combining certain knowledge and create something new out of it. But that something needs always a foundation. It cannot happen without one.  



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Free will is a reality. Why? Because I decided so. :D



Teeqoz said:
Gourmet said:
If you know every single physical constituent of the universe at one moment and all physical laws, you can determine exactly what the universe will look like after any given time. But you can't so it may look like free will exists.

Well, what I'm saying is that from each individual human's perspective, it appears like you have free will. We think we are in control of our own actions. But in reality, it's all a result other factors, so we aren't in control.

 

FYI, the reason that we can't determine exactly what the universe will look like after any given time isn't due to free will existing. It's due to the universe being undeterministic in nature, thanks to quantum physics. Like I stated in the OP, us not having free will does not mean we are on a set path to a set, definite outcome, it just means we can't choose the path nor the outcome.

I personally have a real issue accepting undeterminism in quantum physics. I see quantum physics still deterministic, but humans are incapable of detemining it. I am aware of the double split experiment. How do you want to get data on a force without manipulating it?

It's the same with measurements in electricity, the moment you want to see the value of the current, you'll change it by measurement. It has not a big impact if you work with big values, but when it comes to single particles. Things get difficult.



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Well your are basing it only off what is known or what can be "proven" as far as I can tell. And there are so many things that can not be accounted for within current"knowledge" that I can't say I agree with you even if I understand what you mean.

If we separate "free will" and choice then it might make sense but I think free will and choice go hand and hand personally. Saying it doesn't exist because it technically can't be proven kind works both ways....so there is no concrete way to say whether it does or does not exist. I feel choice does exist and since I relate choice and free will then in essence free will does exist for me. Just because it follows the laws of nature doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is kind of like saying we really do not exist because we just follow nature and chemical reactions. I don't know it is a very deep subject.

I must say though your thought process and how you came to your conclusion is very well put and very understandable and logical.



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TheBlackNaruto said:
Well your are basing it only off what is known or what can be "proven" as far as I can tell. And there are so many things that can not be accounted for within current"knowledge" that I can't say I agree with you even if I understand what you mean.

If we separate "free will" and choice then it might make sense but I think free will and choice go hand and hand personally. Saying it doesn't exist because it technically can't be proven kind works both ways....so there is no concrete way to say whether it does or does not exist. I feel choice does exist and since I relate choice and free will then in essence free will does exist for me. Just because it follows the laws of nature doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is kind of like saying we really do not exist because we just follow nature and chemical reactions. I don't know it is a very deep subject.

I must say though your thought process and how you came to your conclusion is very well put and very understandable and logical.

Would you be so nice to define what Free Will is, according to you? 



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GribbleGrunger said:
Am I posting on this forum because I choose to? Did I choose to use the internet? Did I find this forum or did this forum find me? Did I choose to ask these four simple questions?

What do you think?



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Peh said:
Teeqoz said:

Well, what I'm saying is that from each individual human's perspective, it appears like you have free will. We think we are in control of our own actions. But in reality, it's all a result other factors, so we aren't in control.

 

FYI, the reason that we can't determine exactly what the universe will look like after any given time isn't due to free will existing. It's due to the universe being undeterministic in nature, thanks to quantum physics. Like I stated in the OP, us not having free will does not mean we are on a set path to a set, definite outcome, it just means we can't choose the path nor the outcome.

I personally have a real issue accepting undeterminism in quantum physics. I see quantum physics still deterministic, but humans are incapable of detemining it. I am aware of the double split experiment. How do you want to get data on a force without manipulating it?

It's the same with measurements in electricity, the moment you want to see the value of the current, you'll change it by measurement. It has not a big impact if you work with big values, but when it comes to single particles. Things get difficult.

Look up Bohmian quantum physics.