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Forums - Sports Discussion - Why does Messi needs to win a major tournament in order to be compared to Pele and Maradona?

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Scisca said:
pastro243 said:

Man, all conmebol teams except for Ecuador made it out of their groups in the world cup. Uruguay kicked out Italy and England, Chile did it with euro and worldcup champions spain. In the round of 16 Brazil beat Chile and Colombia did it with Uruguay, then Brazil beat Colombia. Besides, the last 3 confederations cup have been won by Brazil.

Fifa rankings don't mean much but there you have that half the top 10 are conmebol teams.

 

I agree that Copa América is on a lower step than euro, but euro isn't on par with the world cup if you are missing conmebol teams and all those great players (at least 3 of the top 5) 

Up until this year Euro was much more stacked than the WC, there are so many crappy teams from Africa, Asia and Oceania in the WC and quite a few quality Euopean teams not present, that it's a no contest. We lack those 4-5 top teams from Conmebol, but it's still a good trade-off, since we lose all the chaff. That's also the reason why getting out of the group on WC isn't anything incredible, there are too many random teams there. And after that stage the solid teams were consistently eliminating the spontanious latinos.

Conmebol is easily the second best region, but your defence... Why do you all refuse to play defence!? Maybe Argentina and Uruguay are the two teams that try to play it (Italian genes? ). You'd be much better off if you focused on it the way we do. It's what sets us apart, really.
The FIFA rank is absurd, Belgium is 1st/2nd, while Poland barely entered the top 30. Absurd.

Seriously, who cares about confederations cup? Do they even air it on tv?

Chile and Uruguay are the ones that play defense more competently but they have little Italian influence; they don't play 5-3-2.

 African teams last WC showed a lot of potential but were spendthrift in the last third of the field; Algeria and Ghana put on very good shows.

There are many datas that go into Fifa ranking and it's not just international performance.



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Scisca said:
pastro243 said:

Man, all conmebol teams except for Ecuador made it out of their groups in the world cup. Uruguay kicked out Italy and England, Chile did it with euro and worldcup champions spain. In the round of 16 Brazil beat Chile and Colombia did it with Uruguay, then Brazil beat Colombia. Besides, the last 3 confederations cup have been won by Brazil.

Fifa rankings don't mean much but there you have that half the top 10 are conmebol teams.

 

I agree that Copa América is on a lower step than euro, but euro isn't on par with the world cup if you are missing conmebol teams and all those great players (at least 3 of the top 5) 

Up until this year Euro was much more stacked than the WC, there are so many crappy teams from Africa, Asia and Oceania in the WC and quite a few quality Euopean teams not present, that it's a no contest. We lack those 4-5 top teams from Conmebol, but it's still a good trade-off, since we lose all the chaff. That's also the reason why getting out of the group on WC isn't anything incredible, there are too many random teams there. And after that stage the solid teams were consistently eliminating the spontanious latinos.

Conmebol is easily the second best region, but your defence... Why do you all refuse to play defence!? Maybe Argentina and Uruguay are the two teams that try to play it (Italian genes? ). You'd be much better off if you focused on it the way we do. It's what sets us apart, really.
The FIFA rank is absurd, Belgium is 1st/2nd, while Poland barely entered the top 30. Absurd.

Seriously, who cares about confederations cup? Do they even air it on tv?

Teams that play it care, a lot, just ask spain how they felt after being beat by usa and Brazil in the last two. And at least here they air it everytime and people gather to watch most matches.

 

I think you are underestimating other confederations, the best teams from each ones are better than the europeans that don't qualify. Besides, World cup qualifiers in Europe are really easy for big teams, and you already have a hell lot of spots for the World cup. 

 

And on fifa rankings, I also think they are inaccurate but you can't argue quality from the top 10. 

 

I agree on the defense part, it's something cultural (you get the best attacking players but fall short on defenders and goalkeepers)



Goatseye said:

Nigeria, Iran and Bosnia are not exactly teams to test your defense whenever you got the likes of Messi and Di Maria in the front. Switzerland and Belgium were at most ok teams in the WC. They generated some hype on the road to WC, escpecially Belgium with Hazard but they didn't capitalized on it during WC.

Germany didn't have an easy group, they could've been eliminated if Ghana had played seriously.

Stop trying to do this, nobody gets to a World Cup final out of luck. Belgium was and is a good team regardless of your opinion, Switzerland was a decent team back in 2014, The Netherlands is the Netherlands and again it does not matter what the theoretical "level"of a team is or isn't, you gota play and win and many teams don't win. Costa Rica eliminated Italy and England and only lost on the penaltys to the Netherlands, Algeria went into extra time and coud've beat Germany. Germanys group was suposed to be hard but USA is sucking and was aready sucking back on 2014, Ghana played like shit and Portugal is a joke since 2011. Just stop trying to say Argentina isn't a solid team, team plays Belgium, Netherlands and Germany and conceads 1 goal in extra time and you are tyring to say its defense wasn't good... and Argentina played defense using fast counter strikes as its weapon on the entirety of the World Cup, it make sno sense to say they had bad defense when they did this for the whole Worlc Cup, reached the final and had more chances to win the game (and they realy should've won on regular time considering Huiguain missed the easiest goal ever and Messi missed another one) than the oposition did on said final playing the exact same way.

 

Just so you know in the last 8 matchs Argentina played they conceaded 3 goals.



DakonBlackblade said:
Goatseye said:

Nigeria, Iran and Bosnia are not exactly teams to test your defense whenever you got the likes of Messi and Di Maria in the front. Switzerland and Belgium were at most ok teams in the WC. They generated some hype on the road to WC, escpecially Belgium with Hazard but they didn't capitalized on it during WC.

Germany didn't have an easy group, they could've been eliminated if Ghana had played seriously.

Stop trying to do this, nobody gets to a World Cup final out of luck. Belgium was and is a good team regardless of your opinion, Switzerland was a decent team back in 2014, The Netherlands is the Netherlands and again it does not matter what the theoretical "level"of a team is or isn't, you gota play and win and many teams don't win. Costa Rica eliminated Italy and England and only lost on the penaltys to the Netherlands, Algeria went into extra time and coud've beat Germany. Germanys group was suposed to be hard but USA is sucking and was aready sucking back on 2014, Ghana played like shit and Portugal is a joke since 2011. Just stop trying to say Argentina isn't a solid team, team plays Belgium, Netherlands and Germany and conceads 1 goal in extra time and you are tyring to say its defense wasn't good... and Argentina played defense using fast counter strikes as its weapon on the entirety of the World Cup, it make sno sense to say they had bad defense when they did this for the whole Worlc Cup, reached the final and had more chances to win the game (and they realy should've won on regular time considering Huiguain missed the easiest goal ever and Messi missed another one) than the oposition did on said final playing the exact same way.

 

Just so you know in the last 8 matchs Argentina played they conceaded 3 goals.

You want me to stop giving my opinion because I think the only world class dfender in their team is Otamendi?

Barcelona also went a long stretch of games with clean sheets and good defensive record but we all knew how Pique and Dani Alves were average af.

Sorry your Netherlands example doesn't glue, their performance against Australia showed their true face; Martins Indi, Brumak and Van Der Wiel can't defend to save their lives.



Goatseye said:

You want me to stop giving my opinion because I think the only world class dfender in their team is Otamendi?

Barcelona also went a long stretch of games with clean sheets and good defensive record but we all knew how Pique and Dani Alves were average af.

Sorry your Netherlands example doesn't glue, their performance against Australia showed their true face; Martins Indi, Brumak and Van Der Wiel can't defend to save their lives.

The individual level of the each defender is a factor but not the whole picture, what matters is how well the team defends, its defensive system. It is a colective sport. You say the only thing Argentina has is ofense and yet they did not score more than 1 goal on any of 2014 finals matchs and they missed 2 super clear oportunitys and at least 2 other decent ones x Germany while giving the germans no chance to score at all befor ethe extra time. You say their defense sucks and yet they conceaded 1 goal, against the strongest ofense of the competition, at the extra time, after having a handfull fo chances to win the game because they were defending so well and counter attacking.  What got them to the final was their defense and Mascerano was arguably the best player in 2014 World Cup, it certainly wasn't Messi.

The thing you are not understanding is that it is not a matter of opinion, Argentina played defense and got to the finals ald could/should've won the match. Ever since the world cup they conceaded a total of 9 goals in 14 official matchs they played on the last 2 years (and this counts a match on the World Cup qualiffier were they had 6 players down due to injury and or suspension and another one against Brazil on similar conditions). They lost the Copa America final to Chile after tying 0x0 on the match itself. The teams defense is solid as fuck and their attack has been iffy. On this Copa America however the attack is finaly playing like we expect it to, so they might actualy win the thing this time. 

You can clain Argentina has bad defense as much as you like, this did not factor in the slightest in their World Cup defeat nor in their recent Copa America loss and their defense has been super consistent on this current Copa America as well.

And the way you speak about any team that is brought up makes it sound liek no team that played the World Cup aside from Germany was even remotely decent.



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DakonBlackblade said:
Goatseye said:

You want me to stop giving my opinion because I think the only world class dfender in their team is Otamendi?

Barcelona also went a long stretch of games with clean sheets and good defensive record but we all knew how Pique and Dani Alves were average af.

Sorry your Netherlands example doesn't glue, their performance against Australia showed their true face; Martins Indi, Brumak and Van Der Wiel can't defend to save their lives.

The individual level of the each defender is a factor but not the whole picture, what matters is how well the team defends, its defensive system. It is a colective sport. You say the only thing Argentina has is ofense and yet they did not score more than 1 goal on any of 2014 finals matchs and they missed 2 super clear oportunitys and at least 2 other decent ones x Germany while giving the germans no chance to score at all befor ethe extra time. You say their defense sucks and yet they conceaded 1 goal, against the strongest ofense of the competition, at the extra time, after having a handfull fo chances to win the game because they were defending so well and counter attacking.  What got them to the final was their defense and Mascerano was arguably the best player in 2014 World Cup, it certainly wasn't Messi.

The thing you are not understanding is that it is not a matter of opinion, Argentina played defense and got to the finals ald could/should've won the match. Ever since the world cup they conceaded a total of 9 goals in 14 official matchs they played on the last 2 years (and this counts a match on the World Cup qualiffier were they had 6 players down due to injury and or suspension and another one against Brazil on similar conditions). They lost the Copa America final to Chile after tying 0x0 on the match itself. The teams defense is solid as fuck and their attack has been iffy. On this Copa America however the attack is finaly playing like we expect it to, so they might actualy win the thing this time. 

You can clain Argentina has bad defense as much as you like, this did not factor in the slightest in their World Cup defeat nor in their recent Copa America loss and their defense has been super consistent on this current Copa America as well.

And the way you speak about any team that is brought up makes it sound liek no team that played the World Cup aside from Germany was even remotely decent.

Maybe that's it. I'm a hard to impress type of guy and the match against Chile in Copa America showed what a team looks like, a compact block.



Chile is a better team. I told people in here.



Argentina and Messi choked...again third time running.



REDZONE said:
Argentina and Messi choked...again third time running.

Choking is the opposite of what happened in the field. There were various opportunities created for goal by Argentina, sometimes you need a little luck and Bravo on an average day.



Goatseye said:
REDZONE said:
Argentina and Messi choked...again third time running.

Choking is the opposite of what happened in the field. There were various opportunities created for goal by Argentina, sometimes you need a little luck and Bravo on an average day.

This is pure excuses,choking is exactly what they did today again,third final straight.