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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why are we still using discs instead of cartridges?

 

What should we use based on expenses?

Cartridges 201 52.48%
 
Discs 182 47.52%
 
Total:383
SpokenTruth said:
Ganoncrotch said:

Ironically SSD's are almost always going to be smaller in capacity than standard HDD's but still I hope the joke wasn't damaged by this slight mistake of mine

That's already a false statement.  There are now SSD's on the market at over 16 TB's.  The largest mecahnical HDD is 10 TB.  With stacked NAND cells (Samsung goes 48 layers deep on that 16 TB SSD), capacity of SDD's will easily exceed HDD's as a standard (which are requiring helium filled casings to reach 10 TB's).

SvennoJ said:
Tiny flashcards would be a nightmare with kids.

DS, 3DS and Vita say otherwise.

Robtommy34 said:
Why use 80s technology? For nostalgia?

Optical discs and Flash RAM are both 80's era technology.  CD's first hit in 1982 and EEPROM in 1984.

CaptainExplosion said:

SD cards would be a good alternative to discs, right? We've already seen some that can hold 32 or 64 GB.

The largest SD cards currently have a capacity of 512 GB.  Crazier still is that it can be in the form of a micro SD card.

Miyamotoo said:

I think when people today say "cartridge" they refer to flash memory, same like 3DS already have, not to N64 cartridge or something similar.

Actually, the N64 cartridges technically were Flash memory.  They just used the NOR gate tehnology instead of modern Flash which used NAND gate technology.  Your point remains, it's just interesting that they are technically the same thing.

-Ack!- said:
Back when PS1 and N64 competed discs cost like 20 cents and cartridges cost like 20 bucks to make, so there you have it.

Back then, yes.  Far less price gap today.   Though a gap does still exist.  NOR flash memory as used in old N64 carts is expensive.  NAND Flash memeory used in 3DS, Vita and memory cards is cheap.

Platina said:
I'm sure discs are cheaper to mass produce...

And that they are.  Prices are far closer than the old days of cart vs CD but discs are still cheaper to manufacture in bulk overall.

That statement is not false, on the grand scheme of things how many PCs do you think are out there with 128/256gb SSD's and a massive standard HDD for storage? in comparison how many PC's do you think have 16TB SSDs in them? I would wager far far less than .1% would be the latter making the "almost always" statement perfectly true.



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don't care if the game is on disk or cartridge but i'd really like to have a "buy digital now and get a physical copy delivered later" option when i buy games on psn and other digital distribution services.



Fei-Hung said:
Ck1x said:

I understand the argument that you are trying to present, but you can't honestly think that Nintendo would be paying the prices for SD Memory cards as what you are finding on Amazon! The company would get great wholesale prices and the major difference between using a card storage medium now versus the N64 days is SD cards are a major standard now. There were so many different types of storage formats that nothing remotely to the size speed and price of current SD cards existed. So not even just making it exclusive to the SD card format, even if the decided to go with some kind of flash Rom it's far more advanced and cheaper than that of the N64.

No one is saying Nintendo will pay retail, what is being argued is that one medium is naturally more expensive to produce than the other and not by a little bit but by a lot. The question is, why would Nintendo eat up into their own profits of they have a cheaper option. 

But what you aren't factoring in is how much money Nintendo can save and make buy developing games once for multiple devices. This could never happen with one being disc based and the other using some type of flash/Rom card format.



Intrinsic said:
Ck1x said:

I understand the argument that you are trying to present, but you can't honestly think that Nintendo would be paying the prices for SD Memory cards as what you are finding on Amazon! The company would get great wholesale prices and the major difference between using a card storage medium now versus the N64 days is SD cards are a major standard now. There were so many different types of storage formats that nothing remotely to the size speed and price of current SD cards existed. So not even just making it exclusive to the SD card format, even if the decided to go with some kind of flash Rom it's far more advanced and cheaper than that of the N64.

I don't know where you got that i was saying nintendo will pay amazon prices for their storage medium. I clearly pointed out what the cost will be after you take out retailer markups. If on amazon it cost $20, then nintendo cant get that at anything less than $5, or even if you want you can say $2. Thats writing of 90% of the cost as a retailer markup. 

Thst still lesves you with one medium costing around 10c-25c and another costing $2-$5. Doesn't sound like much, until you start counting in the millions. 

And about the cards or type of cards used, first understnd that atorage media isnt onky determined by their capacity. The speed of such media is also very important. Their availability too. And its ludicrous to even be talking about N64 carts...... what was the size of the biggest N64 game? 50MB? 100MB?..... hell, lets even say 400MB and i know they  werent that big. A modern HD game with texture rez that will look halfway decent at 1080p wont come in anythjng less than 15GB today, unless nintendo wants to make games that look like 360 games. This all brings me to the soeed of the carts...

A class 10 SD card has a transfer speed of 10MB/s - 30MB/s. Thats how quickly you can move data from the cart to system ram or an internal HDD. SD cards tech are the most popular and common card tech out there today. Which means they sre the cheapest. If you want, you can use SDXC tech instead, ramp up transfer speeds to over 90MB/s, but those are more expensive.... and if nintendo goes with a proprietary card tech, then that will be most expensive, since they will be the only ones using it. 

No matter how its spun, carts cost more than discs.... amd there simoly are no benefits to them besides durability. 

Like I've stated, why compare stuff you found on Amazon if we don't know the true wholesale price that Nintendo would pay... I understand that there are cons to having a gaming ecosystem that uses a card format, but this maybe more of a plus to Nintendo than negative if their initiative is to unite a game production library. Nintendo should definitely try there hardest to get back as much 3rd party support as possible, but they would be fools to put all of their eggs in that basket. 3rd party developers can be fickle at best and at this stage in gaming they wish for the console manufacturers to provide them with some failsafe of paying for exclusive content. 



zorg1000 said:

So Nintendo needs to either copy the others or "catch lightning in a bottle"? I think that term is used way too loosely.

The funnly thing about people saying going with cartridges would kill 3rd party support is that 3DS & Vita have significantly stronger 3rd party support than Wii U.

I'm beginning to think its more like some just dont like that phrase and less that the phrase actually doesnt apply to nintendos plight.

Look at it how you want to look at it. Call it copy, do what they are doing or just do good business. Call it catch lightning in a bottle or not but the facts are simple.

History has shown, and nintendo has 3 failed consoles to show for it, that first party alone is not enough to make a successful platform.

The onky exception to this was the Wii in the last four consoles they have released. And that was becauss of motion gaming and the game changer it became. 

Such a phenomenon is what is referred to as catching lightning in a bottle. To do something that isnt only different and no one thinks will work but that goes on to become more successful than anyone could have imagined. 

If nintendo are again ignoring all the the things sony and ms are doing or do to be successful, then it must mean they feel they are going to do something that not only differemtiates them but is better. Unless u feel they are in this to sell sub 20M consoles with the NX too. 



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Intrinsic said:
Ck1x said:

I noticed some people are pretty much arguing against possibilities when we know next to nothing about the NX... I also see that many like to conclude for Nintendo to be successful everything is about catching lightening in a bottle. Which is such a disservice to a company that's not only been around for a long time but very profitable as well, even before the Wii and DS came along. Nintendo hasn't had close to equal 3rd party support since maybe the GC days and 3rd party companies weren't what made both the DS and Wii successful, it was all Nintendo coming up with something clever...

Lets make something clear.....

Good first party games alone is not enough to make a successful platform. Nintendo should kjow that very well from the N64, GC and the WiiU. Cause nintendo does have some of the best first party games out there. 

So nintendo has two options.

Get third party support that is at least on par with Sony and MS which also means having hardware that is at least as powerful as theirs with similar features or,

Catch lightning in a bottle (again) as they did with the wii and come up with something that is so different and unique to them that everyone wants a piece of it and can only be had on their platform. They tried that with the WiiU with its controller but failed. 

Its really not complicated, if you arent directly pound for pound competing with the HD twins, then you have to be different enough to succeed withoit most of the things that makes them successful.

As I've stated it wasn't 3rd party software that made the Wii or DS a massive success, it was Nintendo's 1st party games that you seem so easy to dismiss. It's never been an issue about whether Nintendo software will sell, it's about whether the software and hardware provide something unique and different from the other console manufacturers. The term catching lightening in a bottle is just disrespectful to a company that's been around for so long. Apple was on the brink of bankruptcy, do we say that they catch lightening in a bottle with every iPhone and iPad they release? Nintendo is a company that has never made any real efforts to capitalize on the branding of their IP, which they are probably only 2nd to Disney when it comes to worldwide character brand recognition. But people seem to talk as if they will always be relegated to a boutique software maker if they don't fork over all their cash to secure 3rd party games. Out of the gate no one ever looked at the WiiU in the same light as they did the Wii. So it's not about Nintendo catching lightening in a bottle, it's about them creating hardware that for its price has value and the ability to inspire their developers to create amazing games that are unique to that hardware. There are many Nintendo fans that never wanted a WiiU because it didn't feel like that much of a jump from the initial Wii console. Most just chose to buy a 3ds instead and played all of their favorite Nintendo games on that instead.



RolStoppable said:
MikeRox said:

Isn't the cooling for the heat generated by the CPU and GPU rather than the optical drive?

Heat is generated by all of those things, but optical drives are especially bad. You can test this quite easily if you have a digital version of a retail game and compare the noise level of your console to a disc game. It's a notable difference because the fan inside the box is used a lot less when playing a digital game.

That should answer your incoherent question.

Which is still pretty irrelevant because now consoles only use the disc to install the game to the HDD. IF you have notabley different noise levels when comparing a game running off the HDD to another game.... also running off the HDD, then you have a problem.

So no, you won't save anything on cooling in modern game systems.



Intrinsic said:
zorg1000 said:

So Nintendo needs to either copy the others or "catch lightning in a bottle"? I think that term is used way too loosely.

The funnly thing about people saying going with cartridges would kill 3rd party support is that 3DS & Vita have significantly stronger 3rd party support than Wii U.

I'm beginning to think its more like some just dont like that phrase and less that the phrase actually doesnt apply to nintendos plight.

Look at it how you want to look at it. Call it copy, do what they are doing or just do good business. Call it catch lightning in a bottle or not but the facts are simple.

History has shown, and nintendo has 3 failed consoles to show for it, that first party alone is not enough to make a successful platform.

The onky exception to this was the Wii in the last four consoles they have released. And that was becauss of motion gaming and the game changer it became. 

Such a phenomenon is what is referred to as catching lightning in a bottle. To do something that isnt only different and no one thinks will work but that goes on to become more successful than anyone could have imagined. 

If nintendo are again ignoring all the the things sony and ms are doing or do to be successful, then it must mean they feel they are going to do something that not only differemtiates them but is better. Unless u feel they are in this to sell sub 20M consoles with the NX too. 

But to say catching lightening in a bottle is no different than saying Nintendo threw a hail Mary with the Wii and prayed for the best(which people seem to forget that the DS came first and inspired the Wii concept). The market and software that they had out of the gate proved that they knew it was going to be successful and how the system inspired them to make games. The same can't be said for the WiiU, it not only had horrible marketing but the software really didn't use the system to its potential until late in the systems life. Also Nintendo has had a number of consoles that were deemed sells failures by them because they didn't meet or surpass the previous generation of Nintendo console, but went on to being extremely profitable for the company overall. The GC and WiiU are probably the worst offenders of being categorized as such, because the hardware sells don't match up to the amount of money Nintendo put into making the consoles.



Ck1x said:

But to say catching lightening in a bottle is no different than saying Nintendo threw a hail Mary with the Wii and prayed for the best(which people seem to forget that the DS came first and inspired the Wii concept). The market and software that they had out of the gate proved that they knew it was going to be successful and how the system inspired them to make games. The same can't be said for the WiiU, it not only had horrible marketing but the software really didn't use the system to its potential until late in the systems life. Also Nintendo has had a number of consoles that were deemed sells failures by them because they didn't meet or surpass the previous generation of Nintendo console, but went on to being extremely profitable for the company overall. The GC and WiiU are probably the worst offenders of being categorized as such, because the hardware sells don't match up to the amount of money Nintendo put into making the consoles.

Semantics. How you choose to look at the phrase doesn't change what the phrase means. Contextually, the phrase literally means "to accomplish a difficult feat". 

That's it. Now I say to make hardware that isn't as powerful as what else is out there, to ignore third parties and miss out on the biggest selling franchises, to not have a well developed online structure, to not try and secure third party deals......etc and yet make a console that sells as well the Wii, or even the PS3/360, or even the XB1, make a console that a lot more than the absolute die hard Nintendo faithful want..... is a very very very difficult feat.

If you don't agree with that assessment that's another matter. But is that better now? Is using difficult feat kr challenging situation better for you?

and it really doesn't  matter if over all they are profitable or what not. That's not what we are talking about, but even at that.... if you think Nintendo isn't worried about their current state or doesmt have a lot riding on the NX, then I really don't know what to say. 



SpokenTruth said:
SvennoJ said:
Tiny flashcards would be a nightmare with kids.

DS, 3DS and Vita say otherwise.

That was in the context of Micro SDHC, MMC cards, saving costs by going small. Cards that barely cover the tip of your finger.
Vita cards are pretty small already though, I guess kids are better at not losing those cards than me :)

Anyway doesn't matter how small, it's still far more expensive to produce than pressing a disc.
Plus the physical box the games come in aren't that much smaller than a blu-ray, not a lot of savings on size.