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In defense of Trump's (original) abortion statement

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Abortion. What do?

It should be legal and available. 82 71.30%
 
Illegal cuz murder, but let mothers murder 7 6.09%
 
Illegal, punish everyone who murders 11 9.57%
 
Illegal for some other reason 15 13.04%
 
Total:115

I'm definitely pro-life and I personally don't like the idea of abortion, but I can make an exception when a pregnant woman is having a complication and her life is at risk, or when the woman has been a target of non-consensual sex. I consider both scenarios reasonable justifications for an abortion. However, I don't approve when an abortion is done because of poor decision making or for frivolous reasons. Speaking of the latter, I still remember this case of a few years ago, when this woman aborted her baby just because she was told by doctors she was going to have a boy instead of a girl.

Yes, women are owners of their body and their decisions, but it doesn't make it right just because it's okay to kill what many consider a mass of tissue.

I don't agree at all that women who made abortions need to be punished. I don't approve with that. I do think it needs to be regulated in some way.



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Final-Fan said:
KingofTrolls said:

Sweet Jesus, not this shit again.

Does the concept of human reproduction bother you?  Do you believe in the stork theory?  Or are you offended by the idea that it could ever be wrong to kill someone? 

Mostly its wrong to kill someone but not always,if we are sure the child might be suffering after birth till it dies, then who are we to not end its life early just because we love him/her in some way.

It can be really twisted when people are so against all kinds of abortus and seem blind for the suffering of children after birth.



So should a woman have to try and get pregnant every cycle? Otherwise, she is wasting potential human life, is she not?



I bet the Wii U would sell more than 15M LTD by the end of 2015. He bet it would sell less. I lost.

dahuman said:
the-pi-guy said:

The problem is, you can't hang that banner if at the end of the day, it's pro-choice, you can't pick and choose when it's convenient for you, if you make exceptions, then you are pro-choice. It's the usual political BS. Society should do more with sex ad and birth control, not worried as much about abortion where an adult woman, who has the right to her body, should be the one making that decision for herself before it's too late. The person I'm currently with, she's from the South, they didn't even have sex ad where she came from, and you wonder why teen pregnancy is a much more common problem in more conservative areas, search for teen pregnancy in the united states and look at google image for reference, the more liberal areas have way less of that issue. It goes just beyond abortion, it also has to do with women's rights, education, the bible belt(which a lot of times fucks up the education part,) and the topic of rape(child forced on the woman.) It's not a simple pro-life or pro-choice. The pro-life banner doesn't work in the real world, just like how taking guns away from people doesn't work in the US. The middle ground has to be where it makes logical sense if it's based on the law of the country, not based on unrealistic ideals.

It's about what is being focused on.  Are you prioritizing life or choice?  I am pro-life because I am prioritizing the life of the fetus and the mother.  

I am not pro-choice because I do not believe that the choice of the mother is the end all.  If it's a situtation of rape/incest/health, then those are situations where the life of the mother or the fetus are at risk, and could be considered perfectly acceptable grounds for abortion.  The mother simply deciding that she wants an abortion, even if it's because of economic uncertainty should not be grounds for abortion.  If it's economic uncertainty, society should do whatever it can do to ensure that the child and the mother can be taken care of.  

ohmylanta1003 said:
So should a woman have to try and get pregnant every cycle? Otherwise, she is wasting potential human life, is she not?

No and no.  These weird equivalences don't really make any sense. 

If a woman is pregnant, assuming the fetus is healthy, then the only thing stopping it from becoming a life is time, and continued health.  There is no act that she has to do, she just has to keep going and let time pass.

If a woman is not pregnant, then there is no guarantee that she would become pregnant.  Even if she's sleeping with people, that doesn't guarantee pregnancy. 

It's a natural process versus a human action.  For example, murder is illegal and you kill someone, you're going to jail.  If nature kills you, nothing happens.  You can't put nature on trial.  That doesn't mean it's perfectly acceptable to do as nature does.  It's illegal to kill people society, in nature lions will still kill eachother.  



Ya know, if abortion is legal, we should also let people legally euthanize themselves too. Seems fair for all those people with terminal cancer and things like that. If an adult can choose to take a life, they should be allowed to choose to die as well peacefully instead of the nasty ways people do it now. (Ignore the 666 under my name, I'm not evil, promise)



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dahuman said:
                                         

The problem here are the science behind the issues at hand, we know a few things now that we might not have thought about before.

1.) Birth complications- Women have been dying to giving birth since ancient times due to our fucked up evolution, this is more questionable than anything else. If you know the mother will die, or have a high chance of dying to give birth to a child, and live in a world where pro-life is the law, per say, then the mother will die, and the fate of the baby unknown. Maybe there is a father, maybe there is not, maybe there is a family, maybe there is not, apparently nobody gives a shit about the baby after it's born, only when it's in the mother's womb, because for all we know, this baby might die on the street, or goto an adoption agency(potential abuse or not, who knows?) or goes to a shitty relative. The world can be a cruel place, are you going to handle all that? Sometimes, you don't have a choice even if the result looks like it's pro-choice if you want to live, why is the mother's life less important than the baby's when they are both human beings? If you are pro-life, then lives should be equally important, no matter what you choose, a life dies in that situation, it's a paradox.

There is a huge moral difference between an accidental death and killing a person.  For example if somebody gets run over by a car in an accident, while this is highly unfortunate, criminal charges generally are not laid.  That said, if I were to run over somebody with a car deliberately to end their life then this would be manslaughter and I would go to jail.  At the end of the day, every single human being is going to die from something in this world but that is not justification advocate killing innocent people.

In the case of women dying from giving birth, please keep in mind that this makes up about 1% of abortion cases.  In all honesty, if abortion was only being used in cases of rape, incest and life of the mother the number of abortions being performed each year would be so minimal that there likely wouldn't even be a significant pro-life movement.

2.) Envirnoment after birth for the baby and the parents- There is a reason why we try to not get teenagers pregnant, they can't handle it in modern society, and it puts a burden on the family(frawning grandparents as their dollar bills go down the pipes) that can't afford it. The situation doesn't apply to just teenagers either, some people are just not ready to raise a child in a good and healthy environment. Then sometimes they have no choice but to put the baby up for adoption, which is emotional trauma on top of emotional trauma. Life is not that simple.

I'm not saying that life is simple, but we don't kill adolescents who grow up in difficult households and so why should we then be advocating the killing of babies who are being born into difficult situations?  A life is a life and we should be trying to help families who are in difficult economic situations and not kill them off.

Furthermore, how many world's most successful people come from incredibly poor beginnings?  Just because somebody isn't growing up in a good environment doesn't mean that they will turn out to be degenerates or even close to it.  The solution to this problem is not abortion, but rather to support these families far more than we are currently doing.

3.) Medical complications- So, my Mother had to get an abortion, mind you that this was back in the days where technology was way worse, if you think modern day abortion is uncomfortable, dial back to about 38 years ago, and oh boy. Who the fuck would want to get an abortion on a cold ass metal bed with late 1970's vaccum technology in a foreign country that was still in development amirite? It's not like she fucking wanted to okay? She had been injected with a vaccine that had a history of affecting the baby and she didn't know that she was pregnant at the time, so there was a high chance that the baby would come out with permanent damage or straight up die in the womb. Not to mention that she was going to tie the knot after 2 babies(she wanted my older brother to have a sibling,) very logical individual, which would have resulted in me never being born, so thank fucking goodness that happened, otherwise I wouldn't even exist to reply to your post. Shit happens okay? She chose to get that abortion, and I came to existence, if not for that, I might not be here, so thank you abortion.

I am sorry to hear about what happened with your mom.  I'm sure that she is very glad that she has you and your brother.

 

4.) Individual Belief- I know that in some religions, the idea of abortion might be bad, I don't know, I don't know much about religion TBH because I don't believe in the idea of God or Gods as myths or legends or doctorines would tell it by humans(the whole woman from a man's collar bone thing instanly offended me as a child at the age of 9 because it made no fucking sense and I was a 9 year old boy lol.) I'm a man based on science and so are the rest of my family and most of my family chains. And because of the 3 things I listed above, and much more, I think that women should have that choice, TBH sometimes it's not even pro-choice, abortions happen due to a lot of reasons.

The issue of abortion isn't even a religious question because we already have laws against killing.  The issue is a purely scientific question as to when life begins.  I challenge you as a person of science to explain to me why a baby with half of his foot still in the birth canal is considered to be a "clump of cells" while a baby fully born is given the full rights of a human being.  The current definition of when life begins is completely unscientific and is based on emotion and that's wrong.

Pro-life is an unrealistic ideal at the end of day when all thing are considered and that's why abortion is legal in the US.

The fertility rate in the US and almost every western country is so low now that an Islamic takeover is basically inevitable now (I promise you that abortion will not be allowed in their society).  Ask any demographer what happens to societies that have sustained fertility rates <2.10 and you will not find a successful historical example.  Many western countries now have fertility rates <1.6.  Russia, on the other hand, has gone from a fertiity rate of about 1.1 in 1999 to 1.8 now and this is largely thanks to the flourishing pro-life movement in that country.  Pro-life may be an unrealistic ideal in the west, but then so will be our continued existence.

My questions remain: Does nobody give a shit about the mother on the pro-life side!?!?!? Why is the life of the baby more important than the mother's when lives should be equally important?

Yes, mothers need to be supported as much as possible.  This should include a no-questions-asked adoption program that is heavily supported by the church and the state.  Care for the mother definitely (and the family) needs to be a huge part of the solution.

That's some crazy shit.



archer9234 said:
the-pi-guy said:

I absolutely do not agree with Trump when it comes to punishment. 

I view life to be precious.  I don't like abortion.  I don't like how a lot of the people that don't like abortion seem to prize anti-abortion over life.  "I'm pro-life, but I am perfectly okay with you dying in war or dying of starvation."  I don't agree with that.  

There is a point when the fetus is viable to live outside the womb, at that point the grounds for being allowed to kill it, is basically where it is.  If it's right here, it's okay to kill it; but the second it comes out it's illegal.  That doesn't make a lot of sense. "yes you can kill the dog in the cage, but take it out before killing it, that's animal cruelty."

Because the fetus is when the being can become a human. 

That's my point. CAN BECOME. A fetus is aborted before that, normally. So it's not. Why do people want it banned again?

Do you have kids, or have you ever impregnated a woman?