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Forums - Politics Discussion - Islamic State murder British aid worker

Kudistos Megistos said:
VXIII said:

1- " And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

The two bolded line clearly shows that this is all an act of self defence.


This sounds a lot like what Israel has been doing since 1948.

I take it that Muslims around the world approve of Israel, since it has expelled people from the places that they expelled the Jews from, and it kills whoever threatens it with violence? It's just self-defence and taking back what is theirs.

It would be pretty hypocritical if they were to condemn Israel for doing exactly what the Koran tells Muslims to do.

Follow the case to its very first historical origin. Whose land was taken, and then given to others.



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VXIII said:

Follow the case to its very first historical origin. Whose land was taken, and then given to others.


Oh damn it, my mistake.

So the Israelis should expel the Romans? But they were already expelled in the east by the Arabs.

Did the Arabs inherit the responsibility to be expelled when they expelled the Romans?

Or perhaps, to make everything fair, we should revive the eastern Roman empire (I'm sure the Turks won't miss IstanbulConstantinople), then the Romans can take back the whole of the Levant, then the Jews can take Israel back from the Romans? Is that how this works?



Kudistos Megistos said:
VXIII said:

Follow the case to its very first historical origin. Whose land was taken, and then given to others.


Oh damn it, my mistake.

So the Israelis should expel the Romans? But they were already expelled in the east by the Arabs.

Did the Arabs inherit the responsibility to be expelled when they expelled the Romans?

Or perhaps, to make everything fair, we should revive the eastern Roman empire (I'm sure the Turks won't miss IstanbulConstantinople), then the Romans can take back the whole of the Levant, then the Jews can take Israel back from the Romans? Is that how this works?

Israel is a modern term. Your are talking about the history of Jews in general. Jewish populations were a part within different countries and empires, they had no land of their own. Palestine , however is a country by the modern definition. Btw, I'm talking about the right of people in a land, not their politicals leaders, they change all the time.

And yes, if they had a land that was stolen from them, it is their right to get it back.



Qwark said:
MohammadBadir said:
Dear Goodness.
This is not Islam. This is the work of barbarians.


Call it whatever you want, they clearly act like any other fundamental radical Muslim terrorist group, difference is they use the weak status the Middle Easy is in.

(Mainly because western civilisations found it necessary to kill all dictators and tried to install a democracy while this region was clearly not ready yet)

 

Point is they are not inherently evil, they hate Western civilization and have interpreted the Koran in such a way that they could call their acting is correct.

(Which it clearly isn't but being clouded by hatred feeds fundamental thoughts) So these people aren't really barbarians but just people whose vision is clouded by hate and even if ISIS will be destroyed, without strong governments an even more violent successor will come around.

 

Because hate towards western civilisations in the Middle East isn't all that hard to generate, neither wilI the Koran being renewed ( Like the new testament within 20 years). Which unfortunately means the Region will be bound in this cycle for a long time. 

 

But saying the beliefs of these people don't have any influence on the way they handle isn't fully correct, although the local circumstances is the main reason which caused the rise of ISIS.

 

I hope he will be one of the last but I guess there are many more to suffer this terrible fate, may he rest in peace. Ambassadors should really sent western aiders back to their country of origin for their own safety.

Muslims aren't supposed to just freely interpret it. They're supposed to interpret it the way prophet Muhammad did. And he would not have accepted this



Ltd predictions by the time 9th Gen comes out

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Xbox one :75 million( was 65) 

Wii u: 20 milliion

MohammadBadir said:

Holy shit the Islamaphobia in here is real.


Tends to happen when airplanes fly into buildings, metro or undergrounds are being blown up, western aid workers are being slaughtered. Under the name of the Islam. People who´ve faught for ISIS return to the Netherlands and plan to blow up an EU building. A phobia would be unjustified an attack from muslim terrorist in the West is a very plausibel scenario. 



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

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I think the problem is the West believes itself superior to Middle Eastern culture and ideologies and vice versa. I think in all places. The vast majority of the people on the street want to live in peace and leave other people to be. A minority in both parties have a "us and then" mentality and believing themselves superior try and enforce their views on the world. These are the truly ignorant people. People say Muslims hate westerners and say hideous things against Westerners - I know plenty of people in the West who spout hatred about Muslims, and both sides will claim the other side "started it first".

I have so many Muslim friends and I get so upset by sweeping generalisations made against Muslims, usually from people who know nothing truly about Islam and who have never spoken to true Muslims in their lives.



VXIII said:

Israel is a modern term. Your are talking about the history of Jews in general. Jewish populations were a part of others within different countries and empires, they have no land of their own. Palestine , however is a country by the modern definition. Btw, I'm talking about the right of people in a land, not their politicals leaders, they change all the time.

And yes, if they had a land that was stolen from them, it is their right to get it back.

The Jews were the last people to have an independent state there. It's been the possession of foreign empires at every other point in its documented history. And those "others" made it pretty clear that the Jews didn't belong in their countries. The Germans made it clear that the Jews didn't belong in Germany. The Poles made it clear that the Jews didn't belong in Poland. The Arabs made it clear that the Jews didn't belong in Arab countries (except Saddam Hussein, who generously allowed the Jews to return to Iraq several decades after they were expelled and had their property stolen; in retrospect, Saddam doesn't seem like such a bad guy).

This isn't the point I was making tho. The point is that a lot of Muslims don't like it when non-Muslim entities use the Koranic rules for self-defence against Islamic entities. Which is too bad. Since the Islamic State wants to take the Koran literally and declare war on the non-Muslim world, the rest of the world should play them at their own game and give the Islamic State everything they have. If the Islamic State wants to fight Britain, Britain would be within its rights to do everything within its power to destroy the Islamic State. As should the United States if IS wants to fight US. If the western countries threatened by IS act exactly the same way that the Koran instructs Muslims to act when attacked, IS's sympathisers have no right to complain. Both sides would be playing by the same rules.



Kudistos Megistos said:
VXIII said:

Israel is a modern term. Your are talking about the history of Jews in general. Jewish populations were a part of others within different countries and empires, they have no land of their own. Palestine , however is a country by the modern definition. Btw, I'm talking about the right of people in a land, not their politicals leaders, they change all the time.

And yes, if they had a land that was stolen from them, it is their right to get it back.

 

This isn't the point I was making tho. The point is that a lot of Muslims don't like it when non-Muslim entities use the Koranic rules for self-defence against Islamic entities. Which is too bad. Since the Islamic State wants to take the Koran literally and declare war on the non-Muslim world, the rest of the world should play them at their own game and give the Islamic State everything they have. If the Islamic State wants to fight Britain, Britain would be within its rights to do everything within its power to destroy the Islamic State. As should the United States if IS wants to fight US. If the western countries threatened by IS act exactly the same way that the Koran instructs Muslims to act when attacked, IS's sympathisers have no right to complain. Both sides would be playing by the same rules.

It's doesn't make sense, about what  actually your saying is? first you talk about Islam and Jews and know you discussing about ISIS which is isn't part of Muslim teaching? First we have to make a line that that ISIS it's not on Islamic teaching, never was.



HollyGamer said:

It's doesn't make sense, about what  actually your saying is? first you talk about Islam and Jews and know you discussing about ISIS which is isn't part of Muslim teaching? First we have to make a line that that ISIS it's not on Islamic teaching, never was.


I'm giving an example of someone playing by the rules in the Koran and being almost universally hated by the Islamic world for doing so. If people condemn Israel for acting the way it does and yet defend passages of the Koran that tell Muslims to do the same thing, then they are hypocrites.

And don't insult us all by pretending that the Islamic State doesn't abide by Islamic teaching. The Islamic State abides by a literal interpretation of the parts of the Koran and Hadith relating to holy war. Maybe you could say that they're cherry picking parts of it that they like and ignoring parts that they don't like. But they could accuse you of doing the same thing. Don't assume that your subjective interpretation of Islamic scripture is somehow superior to someone else's.

Also, take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I'm not accusing you of using this argument, but I think you're not far away from it.



Kudistos Megistos said:

I'm giving an example of someone playing by the rules in the Koran and being almost universally hated by the Islamic world for doing so. If people condemn Israel for acting the way it does and yet defend passages of the Koran that tell Muslims to do the same thing, then they are hypocrites.

1.If you were to put yourself on the other side's shoes, then your claim would be redundant, as the other side believes that the land is their homeland rather than the Jews'.