Zod95 said:
sundin13 said:
I guess I'll just talk about a one point you made because there is no way I am going to talk about everything in that massive OP:
"Moreover, Nintendo has promoted low competitive environments, where shovelware could thrive and sell millions on the Wii. A console with less than 40% of market share was able to collect many more (and far more successful) trash games than PS1 with 70% or PS2 with 75%."
The reason there was so much shovelware on the Wii was twofold:
1. Relatively cheap development costs: Due to the weaker hardware of the Wii, the development costs and development times could be drastically decreased, allowing the creation of games for much lower costs.
2. Extremely large "casual" userbase: More casuals means more people who are likely to buy a bad "shovelware" game.
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I totally agree with you on this and the OP doesn't say anything against it either.
sundin13 said:
(EDIT: I would like to add that neither of these things are inherently bad. In fact it could be argued that these things are inherently good for the industry, despite the side effect of increased shovelware)
Now, you also say this implying that this is bad for the industry but I disagree. Lets take WayForward Industries as an example of this. You may know them as the creators of games such as "Shantae" or the Mighty franchise but did you know that they have also made games such as "Despicable Me: Minion Mayhem" and "Space Chimp"? Yup, a fan favorite developer funds its wonderful projects by pumping out what many people would refer to as shovelware.
Shovelware by nature is a cheap way to make a profit and in these times of "one unsuccessful game and you go out of business", I don't see how you can complain about that. Where M$ and Sony provide a space in the market that breeds extremely high dev costs and multimillion dollar projects that could very well bankrupt a company, Nintendo has provided a space that allows significant creative freedom (due to innovative control schemes) as well as lower development costs (due to weaker hardware).
Shovelware isn't evil by nature, in fact, it may be the reason some of the games you love are being developed and published.
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You've made a very good point and I can't say you're wrong. Yet, I disagree with you.
In my opinion, a shovelware environment (like the one generated around the Wii) is a bad thing because it concentrates incompetence at making titles and contempt for the gamer. This is everything we don't want to be successful because the moment AAA devs realize they can do more money with shovelware than with AAA titles, we're f***ed. On the other hand, PS2 was a platform for everthing (good and bad games from all genres) and nobody thinks about shovelware when thinking about the console, although it was there. This passes a very different message to developers (shovelware is the easy way but not a long-term viable option) and gamers (there is shovelware, but there is much more than that, you can find plenty of good games).
Microsoft and Sony don't make any developer to spend millions. Look at the PS4 for example, it's full of indie titles. However, they do offer the possibility for devs to create AAA titles. And that's not a bad thing at all.
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I stand by my argument above that Shovelware is actually good for industry.
I would like to ask you, how exactly is this Nintendo's fault and what should they have done about it. Lets go back a while to the GC era. Third parties and gamers both said to Nintendo "we wont support your system even if it is powerful enough". So Nintendo try a different strategy, they try to innovate and they try to make money off of the hardware. They suceed with flying colors, moreso than anybody could have expected. Now what?
How can you blame Nintendo for any of this? If you want to blame someone, blame the 3rd parties who release the shovelware. nintendo does something that is arguable good for this industry and 3rd parties abuse it. Why throw all of the blame on Nintendo for the decisions other companies have made? You are making your point on why shovelware is bad (although I disagree with you) but not why this is Nintendos fault.
EDIT: Also, there are plenty of good, great or amazing games on the Wii. You are implying above that it is only shovelware on Wii when you say that with the PS2 "there is shovelware, but there is much more than that, you can find plenty of good games".
EDIT2: I would also like to add about your last point, where you say "Nintendo creates an environment that encourages shovelware", Sony and MS support an environment that encourages supremely high budget games that lead developers into bankruptcy. Neither are bad models but if you see all the evil in one, you have to see the evil in both...There is as much a possibility of making AAA games on Nintendo hardware as there is of making shovelware on Sony hardware. Once again, the blame is being misplaced and there is a clear bias...
I am Mario.
