True, but many of the responses are essentially the same, or at least there's a lot of overlap. I don't ask for a personal response, just that the major counterpoints that have been raised be addressed. And if you lack the time for that as well, at least don't use hand-waving generalizations to dismiss whatever you're not addressing. OK?

Final-Fan said: Onyxmeth said: I need a link on the Miyamoto quote. Oh and don't worry, I'm getting flamed for MUCH MORE than just blaming Nintendo. Re-read the topic and you'll see. Also, if I asked the question "Did 3rd parties screw us?" it wouldn't have been a discussion more than a resounding "YES! But just you wait..." Outside of the PS1, which was a start-up console, what other major console, successful or not, had this bad third party support? Even Sega had better support with the Dreamcast, which was destined for failure. Third parties do not traditionally ignore major consoles unless they have a reason. The last time they had a reason was because of Nintendo and their blunder of decisions that resulted in the N64. The Miyamoto quote is well-known. Also, 10 seconds' worth of Google turned up the quote and the fact that it's from a Newsweek interview. http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158427 You have not been flamed much if at all. Criticism (non-worship) of your arguments =/= flaming. So you deliberately made a misleading title to get attention? I think that's the definition of "troll". Or is it "flamebait"?

It's neither. I was responding to someone else who said the question should have been "Did third parties screw us?". I responded by saying, in my own way, that it wouldn't have been a discussion. I did not deliberately mislead the title to draw attention. I've actually supported the title by pointing the finger partly at Nintendo.

The reason I wanted the link was to see the date in which Miyamoto said the quote. It was after the Wii came along. It's a great thing to say, and obvious, but many of my points have to do with how Nintendo marketed the Wii, which predates the quote. 

 

There are many serious posts here that have had a lot of thought put into them. Unfortunately they are really long.

As long as Nintendo keeps putting out quality first party software they aren't screwing anyone, because that's what they have the most control over.

Did they promise quality 3rd party software? If they did shame on them.

RolStoppable said: mancandy said: I think Apple is screwing me with all these crappy songs being released for my Ipod. Where the hell is their quality control? As always, your counter arguments are well thought out. Short and direct, but devastating.

Thanks Rol....likewise. I need to do more trolling instead.

izaaz101 said: Well, that's quite a bit of work you put into that. However, I believe that you are wrong in a couple areas. The 2 games you quoted at the beginning, Ninjabread Man and Alvin and the Chipmunks - they also appear on the ps2. So, since you used these games to state that Nintendo has quality control issues, I'm assuming that you think Sony has quality control issues as well, yes? You also stated that shovelware is somehow a new phenomenon, that's never been around before the wii. Shovelware has been around on home consoles before, most notably the ps1 and the ps2. Coincidentally, those two consoles were the consoles that won the generation....much like the way the wii is winning the current generation. And shovelware has been on the handhelds since the gameboy. Nintendo is in a difficult position with respect to shovelware. They were very strict in the past, and the games on the NES/SNES were fantastic.....but the third parties didn't like that. Third parties left Nintendo very quickly when they had the chance, after the emergence of Sony. They are coming back, although very slowly, and if Nintendo started being strict again, they may just leave again, like before. It's a lose-lose situation. That's all I have to say for now.

The two games I mentioned are on the PS2. Sony does have quality control issues. The PS2 I feel did not require any sort of quality control because 3rd parties wanted to develop for it, and develop big. I don't feel like i've heard enough from third parties to suggest they feel the same about the Wii. Most of what i've been hearing is that third parties underestimated the potential and will now begin to get their feet wet. I haven't heard too many saying they are diving in.

I did not state shovelware is a new phenomenon. I said this amount of shovelware is new for Nintendo. I did not mention previously that I meant since the GC and the N64. My point was that the Wii is seeing no better third party support than the last console outside of shovelware. I've already backed this up with numbers.

I feel like they lost third parties for a different reason. I feel the cartridges were to blame. The development costs were high and the profit margin low. I feel this is why Sony acquired Squaresoft and the majority support from third parties. Obviously we differ in this opinion.

 

 

 

 

ookaze said: @Onyxmeth: You don't understand what quality control is. Go back to learn something about it before going back and erasing all the nonsense you've written. Nintendo is not the 3rd parties, so no, Nintendo didn't screw us, unless you think their games screwed you. Nintendo is not responsible for the 3rd parties games. When any 3rd party can't make a game of the value of the last best games on PS2, on the Wii, they are the only one to blame, not Nintendo. I understand you believe Wii is a fad. Bravo on another way to spit that nonsense. Try to focus your mind : if there is an entity to blame, that's the 3rd parties. How come the Wii haters are never able to put the blame on 3rd parties, when they are the one obviously lacking ? I say the merger are not enough, some have to bite the dust for people to understand where the problem comes from.

I suppose I don't know what quality control is. I'll go back and learn something about it before coming back and erasing all the nonsense i've written.

Nintendo does not need to be the third parties to partially affect their decisions.

I don't believe the Wii is a fad, nor have I ever stated that it is.

I'm trying to focus my mind: I understand the third parties are to blame. I also believe that maybe Nintendo had a small part of why this happened.

I don't know what you meant by the last sentence. Clarify and i'll respond. 

 

Smash_Brother said: Onyxmeth said: Does anyone get the sneaking suspision that Nintendo may not have a quality control department?   The PS2 library was 98% utter garbage. /thread

The PS2 library is not 98% utter garbage. You mentioned it has over 2000 titles. 2% of 2,000 is 40 titles. If it has 3,000 that's 60 titles. Most everyone would not agree with this statement that PS2 has between 40 and 60 titles that are not "utter garbage" The percentage isn't even close.

 

Onyxmeth said: ookaze said: @Onyxmeth: You don't understand what quality control is. Go back to learn something about it before going back and erasing all the nonsense you've written. Nintendo is not the 3rd parties, so no, Nintendo didn't screw us, unless you think their games screwed you. Nintendo is not responsible for the 3rd parties games. When any 3rd party can't make a game of the value of the last best games on PS2, on the Wii, they are the only one to blame, not Nintendo. I understand you believe Wii is a fad. Bravo on another way to spit that nonsense. Try to focus your mind : if there is an entity to blame, that's the 3rd parties. How come the Wii haters are never able to put the blame on 3rd parties, when they are the one obviously lacking ? I say the merger are not enough, some have to bite the dust for people to understand where the problem comes from. I suppose I don't know what quality control is. I'll go back and learn something about it before coming back and erasing all the nonsense i've written. Nintendo does not need to be the third parties to partially affect their decisions. I don't believe the Wii is a fad, nor have I ever stated that it is. I'm trying to focus my mind: I understand the third parties are to blame. I also believe that maybe Nintendo had a small part of why this happened. I don't know what you meant by the last sentence. Clarify and i'll respond.

I'll spare you the trouble : quality control is about if the game runs well without crashing constantly, if thebooklet respects some norms, if there are mandatory things that such or such country want in a game, ... It has nothing to do with a "seal of quality" that means "this game will get 80%+ on metacritic.

Now you tell me Nintendo affects 3rd parties? Then how come they don't all make amazing games for the Wii, that sells millions? How come they don't put their A-string devs to Wii projects like Nintendo does? How come their ratio of shovelware is not the same as Nintendo's (meaning near zero)?

You remind me of these people that dare say Nintendo wasn't the only one that pushed the DS to success. There are people that say 3rd parties helped make the DS the success it is, which is just plain wrong. It's the same with the Wii: you want Nintendo to do everything, even pay for 3rd party nonsense, and you will blame Nintendo for any mistake 3rd parties make, which is not rational thinking at all.

I have no doubt that if the 3rd parties start outputting their best franchises on the Wii, you will be part of those that say "Nintendo met success with the Wii thanks to 3rd parties".

I can only shake my head at such nonsense, and sometimes laugh. There's not a single week, sometimes day, that pass, without someone making one of those silly threads, like yours, which is just a troll by your own admission. You knew it was not worthy of a thread, but chose to change the title to idiotic, and waste everyone's time. 

Onyxmeth said: tastyshovelware said: Well thanks for understanding that I'm not trying to step on everyone's hopes and dreams here. Nor do I hate the Wii. I like it a lot and hope for it to succeed with quality gaming. I'm just trying to bring up that the Wii is in a unique situation of having the success without the games and what that might mean for the minds of third party developers. I can't prove my points without a shadow of a doubt, but I feel like most of the responses against my topic are merely speculative. There's no true ground yet that the Wii will have this great third party gaming lineup in the future. Think of every game known to be in development for the Wii from third parties, and tell me how many you expect to exceed the 91% that Resident Evil 4 got? Okami, probably. It's the only one. Also notice they're both ports of previous Capcom successes.  When will we get even one "from the ground up" Wii game from a third party that can hit the 90% mark? I hope E3 has answers, because no one in this topic has given any yet. By the time the third parties step it up, will it already be too far into the console's lifecycle? 2009? 2010? That seems like a long time to wait for quality(not counting first party). There's also the original point that this may be partly Nintendo's fault. They opened the market up and defied logic by pulling off this miracle of a success. However I feel devs are taking this "beginning gamers" approach of Nintendo's too true to heart. So many third party titles are catering to "easy to get into" experiences, which is fine as long as you can support those that want something a bit more involving. I'm just asking if anyone believes Nintendo may have scared developers away from putting in an effort by going too far away from the beaten path?

 The problem you are having is caused by the way you constructed your arguement. You blamed Nintendo for no longer using a system third parties hated as a reason for third parties not doing more on the Wii. That just doesn't make any sense at all. You have since expanded and changed your arguement a great deal and seem confused as to why people aren't addressing these new points that were previously absent. You went from saying shovelware is a new, and unique phenomenon on the Wii to saying the PS2 had the same problem but it wasn't as big of a deal because third parties were already on board.

 The other issue is you seem to have come to a conclusion and expect everyone else to disprove it while not offering any supporting evidence for your positions. You say shovelware makes third parties not like the Wii, but where is there any proof of that? It certainly didn't hurt the PS2, but somehow it will hurt the Wii? Development takes time and I don't think any third party developer was expecting the Wii to be a success in the core gamer arena. You have a couple games right now, and more with ports that are showing third parties wanting to treat the Wii equally. Guitar Hero and Rock Band are the two multiplatform titles that jump out without a second of research. I suppose Star Wars: The Force Unleashed and PES (or was it another soccer game) getting focused effort on the Wii are good signs as well, but we will have to wait and see the results of their labor.

 If I payed the slightest bit of attention to review scores I might be able to suggest a third party title that could break 91%. I do know there are a lot out there in the 85-90% range and that is very good imo.

Onyxmeth said: Final-Fan said: Onyxmeth said: I need a link on the Miyamoto quote. Oh and don't worry, I'm getting flamed for MUCH MORE than just blaming Nintendo. Re-read the topic and you'll see. Also, if I asked the question "Did 3rd parties screw us?" it wouldn't have been a discussion more than a resounding "YES! But just you wait..." Outside of the PS1, which was a start-up console, what other major console, successful or not, had this bad third party support? Even Sega had better support with the Dreamcast, which was destined for failure. Third parties do not traditionally ignore major consoles unless they have a reason. The last time they had a reason was because of Nintendo and their blunder of decisions that resulted in the N64. The Miyamoto quote is well-known. Also, 10 seconds' worth of Google turned up the quote and the fact that it's from a Newsweek interview. http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158427 You have not been flamed much if at all. Criticism (non-worship) of your arguments =/= flaming. (Well, I suppose it depends on how one defines "flaming". Some of the critiques are very harsh, but almost none deteriorate into namecalling and suchlike.) So you deliberately made a misleading title to get attention? I think that's the definition of "troll". Or is it "flamebait"? It's neither. I was responding to someone else who said the question should have been "Did third parties screw us?". I responded by saying, in my own way, that it wouldn't have been a discussion. I did not deliberately mislead the title to draw attention. I've actually supported the title by pointing the finger partly at Nintendo. The reason I wanted the link was to see the date in which Miyamoto said the quote. It was after the Wii came along. It's a great thing to say, and obvious, but many of my points have to do with how Nintendo marketed the Wii, which predates the quote.

Fair enough.  It had seemed to me, since his criticism that you responded to boiled down to "you're complaining about third-party stuff not under Nintendo's control, so you should have accused them in the title instead of Nintendo", that you were replying "yeah, but if I'd given it that title it wouldn't have gotten much discussion". 

In fact, that is pretty much exactly what you said. I'm sorry that I misunderstood what you were trying to say but in my defense it was a really easy mistake to make given the text of your response and the context of his statement.