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Forums - General - The Official Song of Ice and Fire Thread [UNMARKED SPOILERS FOR ALL BOOKS]

Kantor said:
Munkeh111 said:
KylieDog said:
Stannis is not still at the wall, did you somehow miss his entire march to Deepwood Motte and then to Winterfell?

I am not sure he really matters, he is surely about to die...

Also, who is left in the north to fight, they just seem to die constantly

You think so? He has a fairly powerful army and a red witch, as well as the support of the Night Watch. He will soon be allied with pretty much the entire North. Who would kill him?

EDIT: He also has the Iron Bank of Braavos.

People who can still claim the Lord Paramountcy of the North:

  • Jon Snow (legitimised and named as heir by Robb. Perhaps his death frees him of his vows, so he is a free man when resurrected)
  • Rickon Stark (Davos is searching for him)
  • Arya Stark
  • Sansa Stark
  • Bran Stark

People left to fight: literally everyone in the entire North except for House Stark. House Manderly springs to mind, as well as House Reed and House Umber. The Karstarks are mostly traitors, unfortunately, but with the Lannisters in their current pitiful condition (Tywin dead, Kevan dead, Tyrion in Essos, Jaime either dead or far away, Cersei awaiting trial, Tommen is a child, Pycelle dead) and a Stark King in the North, I think most Northern lords would be willing to switch sides again.

Well I was more thinking of the lack of food and warmth killing his army, which was never that big to begin with, and any assault on a fully manned Winterfell is going to be a tough task

So he can win the alliegance of the Northern houses, but most have been gutted have they not? The Manderlys are allied with him, but I can't remember where their knights are, but most of the Umbers will have died in the aftermath of the Red Wedding. My point is, all the people loyal to the Starks went with them when Robb raised the banners and went south. Which powerful Northern Lords have forces? It is probably just the Manderlys as the Reeds aren't very strong at all.

I feel his best chance of winning the North is with Rikkon, as he seems the only good candidate. Sansa is going to have to do very weird things with Littlefinger, Arya is going to do more weird assassin things and Bran can't walk...

I guess we shouldn't over analyse this, since as far as I can tell, there aren't really any large cities in the North, so it is kind of hard to see where all these people actually live/come from. Especially as if everything continued at this rate, the human race would just die, well certainly the Lords, since they spend all their time killing each other



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Munkeh111 said:
Kantor said:

You think so? He has a fairly powerful army and a red witch, as well as the support of the Night Watch. He will soon be allied with pretty much the entire North. Who would kill him?

EDIT: He also has the Iron Bank of Braavos.

People who can still claim the Lord Paramountcy of the North:

  • Jon Snow (legitimised and named as heir by Robb. Perhaps his death frees him of his vows, so he is a free man when resurrected)
  • Rickon Stark (Davos is searching for him)
  • Arya Stark
  • Sansa Stark
  • Bran Stark

People left to fight: literally everyone in the entire North except for House Stark. House Manderly springs to mind, as well as House Reed and House Umber. The Karstarks are mostly traitors, unfortunately, but with the Lannisters in their current pitiful condition (Tywin dead, Kevan dead, Tyrion in Essos, Jaime either dead or far away, Cersei awaiting trial, Tommen is a child, Pycelle dead) and a Stark King in the North, I think most Northern lords would be willing to switch sides again.

Well I was more thinking of the lack of food and warmth killing his army, which was never that big to begin with, and any assault on a fully manned Winterfell is going to be a tough task

So he can win the alliegance of the Northern houses, but most have been gutted have they not? The Manderlys are allied with him, but I can't remember where their knights are, but most of the Umbers will have died in the aftermath of the Red Wedding. My point is, all the people loyal to the Starks went with them when Robb raised the banners and went south. Which powerful Northern Lords have forces? It is probably just the Manderlys as the Reeds aren't very strong at all.

I feel his best chance of winning the North is with Rikkon, as he seems the only good candidate. Sansa is going to have to do very weird things with Littlefinger, Arya is going to do more weird assassin things and Bran can't walk...

I guess we shouldn't over analyse this, since as far as I can tell, there aren't really any large cities in the North, so it is kind of hard to see where all these people actually live/come from. Especially as if everything continued at this rate, the human race would just die, well certainly the Lords, since they spend all their time killing each other

White Harbour is almost certainly the largest Northern city, and that's a Manderly holding.

Admittedly, Sansa is going to be off being Lady Paramount of the Vale, Arya is across the sea from Winterfell and Bran is becoming a tree. So yes, Rickon is the most sensible choice. But a Stark is a Stark. The Northerners always come across as honour-bound traditionalists, and the Starks have ruled the North for millenia. They're not going to roll over and let a Bolton who is really just a Lannister puppet take control. As for Northern numbers, I've shamelessly stolen this from a post on the ASOIAF Crusader Kings II forum.

These are the numbers I think would be closest to what GRRM has in mind (I compiled this mostly from different thread in westeros.org):

- The North: 30,000
- The Riverlands: 35,000
- The Vale: 30,000
- The West: 45,000-50,000
- Iron Isles: 20,000-25,000
- Crownlands: 25,000
- The Stormlands: 20,000-25,000
- The Reach: 80,000
- Dorne: 25,000

That does put the North as one of the weaker areas, but Stannis has the Stormlands as well, and the Riverlands will likely join him if he can secure the allegiance of the North and drive out the Lannister puppets. That's enough to grant him a foothold, though almost certainly not enough to avoid being crushed by Aegon if he manages to secure Dorne and the Reach (and the Stormlands, come to think of it, which leaves Stannis with just the Florents and the Northerners).



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Kantor said:
Munkeh111 said:
Kantor said:

You think so? He has a fairly powerful army and a red witch, as well as the support of the Night Watch. He will soon be allied with pretty much the entire North. Who would kill him?

EDIT: He also has the Iron Bank of Braavos.

People who can still claim the Lord Paramountcy of the North:

  • Jon Snow (legitimised and named as heir by Robb. Perhaps his death frees him of his vows, so he is a free man when resurrected)
  • Rickon Stark (Davos is searching for him)
  • Arya Stark
  • Sansa Stark
  • Bran Stark

People left to fight: literally everyone in the entire North except for House Stark. House Manderly springs to mind, as well as House Reed and House Umber. The Karstarks are mostly traitors, unfortunately, but with the Lannisters in their current pitiful condition (Tywin dead, Kevan dead, Tyrion in Essos, Jaime either dead or far away, Cersei awaiting trial, Tommen is a child, Pycelle dead) and a Stark King in the North, I think most Northern lords would be willing to switch sides again.

Well I was more thinking of the lack of food and warmth killing his army, which was never that big to begin with, and any assault on a fully manned Winterfell is going to be a tough task

So he can win the alliegance of the Northern houses, but most have been gutted have they not? The Manderlys are allied with him, but I can't remember where their knights are, but most of the Umbers will have died in the aftermath of the Red Wedding. My point is, all the people loyal to the Starks went with them when Robb raised the banners and went south. Which powerful Northern Lords have forces? It is probably just the Manderlys as the Reeds aren't very strong at all.

I feel his best chance of winning the North is with Rikkon, as he seems the only good candidate. Sansa is going to have to do very weird things with Littlefinger, Arya is going to do more weird assassin things and Bran can't walk...

I guess we shouldn't over analyse this, since as far as I can tell, there aren't really any large cities in the North, so it is kind of hard to see where all these people actually live/come from. Especially as if everything continued at this rate, the human race would just die, well certainly the Lords, since they spend all their time killing each other

White Harbour is almost certainly the largest Northern city, and that's a Manderly holding.

Admittedly, Sansa is going to be off being Lady Paramount of the Vale, Arya is across the sea from Winterfell and Bran is becoming a tree. So yes, Rickon is the most sensible choice. But a Stark is a Stark. The Northerners always come across as honour-bound traditionalists, and the Starks have ruled the North for millenia. They're not going to roll over and let a Bolton who is really just a Lannister puppet take control. As for Northern numbers, I've shamelessly stolen this from a post on the ASOIAF Crusader Kings II forum.

These are the numbers I think would be closest to what GRRM has in mind (I compiled this mostly from different thread in westeros.org):

- The North: 30,000
- The Riverlands: 35,000
- The Vale: 30,000
- The West: 45,000-50,000
- Iron Isles: 20,000-25,000
- Crownlands: 25,000
- The Stormlands: 20,000-25,000
- The Reach: 80,000
- Dorne: 25,000

That does put the North as one of the weaker areas, but Stannis has the Stormlands as well, and the Riverlands will likely join him if he can secure the allegiance of the North and drive out the Lannister puppets. That's enough to grant him a foothold, though almost certainly not enough to avoid being crushed by Aegon if he manages to secure Dorne and the Reach (and the Stormlands, come to think of it, which leaves Stannis with just the Florents and the Northerners).

So the northerners took their army of 20,000 down south, most of them did not return

I do agree that they could get most of the Riverlands strength, but other than that, it is hard to know with Aegon and possibly Danny to challenge. The other question is what will the Tyrells do, they have the largest army and haven't had to fight, they can swing every battle. But this is assuming that they aren't all killed by the white walkers...

But that reminds me, I should really give Crusader Kings II another try to make sense of the game



KylieDog said:


Ok it relates to dreams that Dany has.  From GOT:

Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. And if in answer there was a great hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found her, she woke...


This is from before the dragons, Viserys was always violent towards her, however her body being thick and ungainly is a fortelling of her becoming pregnant, her thighs thick with blood is the abortion, Viserys being gone his death and the Dragon obiously the coming of the dragons. 

It was all accurate and seen before any of it happening.  Next is another dream, many people seem to think it was the fortelling of dragons again, but ADWD made me change my mind on this.

When she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. It was only her and the dragon. It’s scales were black and night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, flame came out in a hot jet. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

The dragon is obviously Drogon, however the events seem to be describing the arena scene in ADWD, Drogon is bleeding, her blood (she is the mother of dragons, so we know was not Balerion she was seeing), Drogon burns her like in ADWD, but it does not kill her and it instead rebirths her.  Before this happens she was unable to have children, however once out in the desert she begins to have periods again and is shocked by this, unsure where the blood was coming from (because she not meant to be having them).

This all ties in with Mirri Max Duurs prophecy Dany hears:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.

Just to cover all of it:

- The sun rises in east and sets in west.  This is Quentyn Martell, he is from Sunspear and his house banner has the image of a Sun on it.  He travelled from the west where he was born (rises) and died in the east (set).

- When the seas go dry - Well the Iron folk who are all about the sea are heading to Dany, it is possible they will all die from the desert, however, remember the magic dragon horn from the Kingsmoot on the Iron Islands?  The guy who blew on it died and when cut open his insides were described as charred black, is possible that Victarion will blow the horn and then burn/dry up from the inside.

- Mountains blow in the wind - This is only thing not got a solid theory for, could be the wall coming down thanks to that other magical horn (it is suggested in the books the one burned was a fake), could be catapults used in a battle, could be an eruption in Valyria again.

- When wombs quickens - See the dragon burning Dany/reborn and her womb quickening (periods again).

- She gonna get pregnant again maybe.

Anyway, it ALL ties into Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy of Drogo returning, though it will likely be in an unconventional way.


Also, while I'm explaining stuff, another prophecy whic is related.

"Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone"


Dany woke dragons out of stone, she was born amidst smoke on Dragonstine, a Volcanic isand (smoke) in the sea (salt).  Dany is Azor Ahai.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about Mirri Maz Duur.

You're certainly right about the sun rising in the west and setting in the east.

I always thought of the seas running dry as a reference to either the Dothraki sea or a great winter which would turn all of the seas to ice.

The Mountain (Gregor Clegane/Robert Strong) may well be blowing in the wind if the Brotherhood of Banners ever manage to find him.

 

The thing is, the impression you get certainly isn't that Mirri was prophesising. She was taunting. She's basically saying "hah, Drogo is dead and he is never coming back. The sun rises in the east, the seas are wet, mountains are anchored to the ground, and I've completely ruined your womb. Fuck you." It may be that she suddenly had a greendream or accidentally prophesised, however, in the vein of Patchface or Teora from the Arianne sample chapter that's on GRRM's website.

Azor Ahai is a tossup between Daenerys (with the dragons as Lightbringer) and Jon Snow (with the Night Watch as Lightbringer). Melisandre certainly thinks it's Jon, but then she used to think it was Stannis of all people, so I'm not sure she can be trusted on that.

 



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Munkeh111 said:

So the northerners took their army of 20,000 down south, most of them did not return

I do agree that they could get most of the Riverlands strength, but other than that, it is hard to know with Aegon and possibly Danny to challenge. The other question is what will the Tyrells do, they have the largest army and haven't had to fight, they can swing every battle. But this is assuming that they aren't all killed by the white walkers...

But that reminds me, I should really give Crusader Kings II another try to make sense of the game

Yes you should, and pick up the mod while you're at it.

http://citadel.prophpbb.com/topic1826.html

I'll link that in the OP as well.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

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KylieDog said:


*prophecy*

I really hope you're wrong, because frankly most of those explanations are incredibly lame at best.



Kantor said:
Munkeh111 said:

So the northerners took their army of 20,000 down south, most of them did not return

I do agree that they could get most of the Riverlands strength, but other than that, it is hard to know with Aegon and possibly Danny to challenge. The other question is what will the Tyrells do, they have the largest army and haven't had to fight, they can swing every battle. But this is assuming that they aren't all killed by the white walkers...

But that reminds me, I should really give Crusader Kings II another try to make sense of the game

Yes you should, and pick up the mod while you're at it.

http://citadel.prophpbb.com/topic1826.html

I'll link that in the OP as well.

I bought the game specifically for the mod, but I felt that I should play the vanilla game first. Anyway, I have to get through FC3 first, then go back and finish the Witcher 2 and hope this is done before my next wave of games start in March....



Munkeh111 said:
Kantor said:
Munkeh111 said:

So the northerners took their army of 20,000 down south, most of them did not return

I do agree that they could get most of the Riverlands strength, but other than that, it is hard to know with Aegon and possibly Danny to challenge. The other question is what will the Tyrells do, they have the largest army and haven't had to fight, they can swing every battle. But this is assuming that they aren't all killed by the white walkers...

But that reminds me, I should really give Crusader Kings II another try to make sense of the game

Yes you should, and pick up the mod while you're at it.

http://citadel.prophpbb.com/topic1826.html

I'll link that in the OP as well.

I bought the game specifically for the mod, but I felt that I should play the vanilla game first. Anyway, I have to get through FC3 first, then go back and finish the Witcher 2 and hope this is done before my next wave of games start in March....

Is your deadline 26th March for BioShock Infinite as well? Greenmangaming has a great deal where you can get 25% off any pre-purchase, bringing it down to £22.50, with either £1 cashback or £2 store credit.

I've tried the vanilla game, and it's very good, but I don't get drawn into it like I do the mod. I wonder what it says about me (and GRRM) that I care more about the world of ASOIAF than actual medieval Europe with its real people and events.



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DAMNIT!! I can't read this thread!! Too many spoilers!



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KylieDog said:
noname2200 said:
KylieDog said:


*prophecy*

I really hope you're wrong, because frankly most of those explanations are incredibly lame at best.

Is the type that been used already numerous times.

To that degree? Refresh my memory, please. The closest I can think of is the stuff from the House of the Undying, but I didn't take those as being meant as prophecy, merely foreshadowing, so their heavy use of symbolism was fine by me.

Edit: Hmm, actually now that I think of it, Jojen's stuff might come close, although even there the symbolism just doesn't feel like as much of a stretch to me.