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Nikkei Article on Cafe confirms control

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Play4Fun said:
noname2200 said:
Play4Fun said:

BS ROL! BS!  D=<

3D mario is not a big deal? Oh yeah, that must be why SMG 1 & 2 are the   games on Wii that people talk most about. Or why so many people are looking forward to see where they will take the next 3D Mario. Oh and both Galaxies sold about 8 to 10 mil respectively.

Just because they didn't sell as much as NSMBii, they're not worth it? You sound like those guys on the SeanMalstrom forum! They're fools! Fools I say! Don't be a fool too ROL!

Not to sound condescending, but outside of internet forums the Galaxy games are not the Wii games that "people talk most about."

It's not even close.

As to your last question, let me respond with a football analogy. Imagine your team has two QBs, Joe Montana and Donovan McNabb. If the season is just starting, why would you ever make McNabb your starter in lieu of Montana? You'd be crucified by the fans...

This forum isn't the only one I post on and the Galaxies are some of the most loved games on Wii (not that NSMBii isn't as well).

Out of the vast number of people who bought NSMBii, how many of them are willing to buy a $350 console to play a 2D Mario? Alot of them are more likely to pick up the console when it is cheaper. The 3D mario gamers on the other hand are likely to be early adopters, so there would be nothing wrong with having a 3D Mario at launch.

I'm not saying they will have a 3D Mario at launch, I don't care which we get or when. I'm just saying just because 2D Mario is the best selling one does not mean launch is the best time to release it. This console is  likely to come out above mass market price.

I also doubt fans would crucify them for launching a 3D Mario.

 

I was not and am not limiting "forums" to just vgchartz. It is in no way true that the Galaxy games are the most talked about Wii games; not only have several other games outsold them (often by more than double), but you'd be hard pressed to find them even mentioned outside of the internet.

For your second point, you have nothing but conjecture to back that up and, in point of fact, I strongly doubt that you're right. That audience has proven to be both more rabid and more loyal than 3D Mario's fanbase, and I don't see how you can argue otherwise. They literally built Nintendo, and they're much more massive: not catering to them right out of the gate is sheer idiocy. Again, Montana vs. McNabb.

Finally, you're right that they won't crucify Nintendo for that. They just won't buy the system in as many numbers. And I want to point out that while we're focusing this discussion on just Mario platformers, we're only doing so in order to get a convenient example to wrap our discussion around: the bigger issue many of us have is with the direction Nintendo has taken with the 3DS and seems to be taking with Cafe. The former fears have thus far proven to be justified, and I suspect the system will continue to be outpaced by the "third pillar" (something which IS shameful, and don't let the revisionists tell you otherwise) until and unless it changes its emphasis. The latter fears may prove groundless, since we haven't had any concrete details about Cafe yet, but judging from what Nintendo's been saying and doing recently I suspect Cafe may become another N64 or PS3. Time will tell.



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noname2200 said:
Play4Fun said:
noname2200 said:
Play4Fun said:

BS ROL! BS!  D=<

3D mario is not a big deal? Oh yeah, that must be why SMG 1 & 2 are the   games on Wii that people talk most about. Or why so many people are looking forward to see where they will take the next 3D Mario. Oh and both Galaxies sold about 8 to 10 mil respectively.

Just because they didn't sell as much as NSMBii, they're not worth it? You sound like those guys on the SeanMalstrom forum! They're fools! Fools I say! Don't be a fool too ROL!

Not to sound condescending, but outside of internet forums the Galaxy games are not the Wii games that "people talk most about."

It's not even close.

As to your last question, let me respond with a football analogy. Imagine your team has two QBs, Joe Montana and Donovan McNabb. If the season is just starting, why would you ever make McNabb your starter in lieu of Montana? You'd be crucified by the fans...

This forum isn't the only one I post on and the Galaxies are some of the most loved games on Wii (not that NSMBii isn't as well).

Out of the vast number of people who bought NSMBii, how many of them are willing to buy a $350 console to play a 2D Mario? Alot of them are more likely to pick up the console when it is cheaper. The 3D mario gamers on the other hand are likely to be early adopters, so there would be nothing wrong with having a 3D Mario at launch.

I'm not saying they will have a 3D Mario at launch, I don't care which we get or when. I'm just saying just because 2D Mario is the best selling one does not mean launch is the best time to release it. This console is  likely to come out above mass market price.

I also doubt fans would crucify them for launching a 3D Mario.

 

I was not and am not limiting "forums" to just vgchartz. It is in no way true that the Galaxy games are the most talked about Wii games; not only have several other games outsold them (often by more than double), but you'd be hard pressed to find them even mentioned outside of the internet.

For your second point, you have nothing but conjecture to back that up and, in point of fact, I strongly doubt that you're right. That audience has proven to be both more rabid and more loyal than 3D Mario's fanbase, and I don't see how you can argue otherwise. They literally built Nintendo, and they're much more massive: not catering to them right out of the gate is sheer idiocy. Again, Montana vs. McNabb.

Finally, you're right that they won't crucify Nintendo for that. They just won't buy the system in as many numbers. And I want to point out that while we're focusing this discussion on just Mario platformers, we're only doing so in order to get a convenient example to wrap our discussion around: the bigger issue many of us have is with the direction Nintendo has taken with the 3DS and seems to be taking with Cafe. The former fears have thus far proven to be justified, and I suspect the system will continue to be outpaced by the "third pillar" (something which IS shameful, and don't let the revisionists tell you otherwise) until and unless it changes its emphasis. The latter fears may prove groundless, since we haven't had any concrete details about Cafe yet, but judging from what Nintendo's been saying and doing recently I suspect Cafe may become another N64 or PS3. Time will tell.


noname, Sean Malstrom´s latest article (where he calls Nintendo´s next home console 'Project Cliche') says this:

From Nikkei, which has proven to be a reliable source of news concerning Nintendo hardware, we hear that the controller for Project Cliche (which is what Project Cafe is) will have a camera, a color screen, and a touch screen.

Is this a winning strategy? What would be a winning strategy for a home console?

Home consoles win by doing things only a home console can do. If this is true, then Project Cliche would be an anti-console. It is adopting handheld elements which would make it a poor home console. I am referring to the screen on the controller and the streaming.

There is market data to suggest this will be the outcome. The reason why the PSP and other non-Nintendo handhelds failed was because they were anti-handhelds. They were handhelds that tried to have home console elements instead of focus on handheld elements.

We haven’t seen a home console try to mimic elements of the handheld console before. But if we did, it is probable that the market reaction would be similar to the handheld console trying to adopt home console elements. It would be seen as an anti-console and would be difficult to sell.

I think Nintendo is operating from the wrong premise with the design for Project Cliche. Nintendo is looking at market data that says people do not want to turn on the home console because someone is watching TV or something else. This is why the controllers have a screen so they can ‘stream’.

The winning answer is a home console that adopts the elements of the home console. This would mean many people surrounding one TV playing a game. This would emphasize local multiplayer. This would mean games like Wii Sports, Mario Kart Wii, and Super Mario Brothers 5. Note that these games were most responsible for pushing Wii hardware numbers.

This Project Cliche direction is going to be extremely unsatisfying to people who want a home console experience. Most of all, it will be extremely unsatisfying to the Wii Sports type players. How exactly is Nintendo going to bring the Wii Sports gamers to the Project Cliche?

What´s your opinion on what he thinks?



JGarret said:


noname, Sean Malstrom´s latest article (where he calls Nintendo´s next home console 'Project Cliche') says this:

From Nikkei, which has proven to be a reliable source of news concerning Nintendo hardware, we hear that the controller for Project Cliche (which is what Project Cafe is) will have a camera, a color screen, and a touch screen.

Is this a winning strategy? What would be a winning strategy for a home console?

Home consoles win by doing things only a home console can do. If this is true, then Project Cliche would be an anti-console. It is adopting handheld elements which would make it a poor home console. I am referring to the screen on the controller and the streaming.

There is market data to suggest this will be the outcome. The reason why the PSP and other non-Nintendo handhelds failed was because they were anti-handhelds. They were handhelds that tried to have home console elements instead of focus on handheld elements.

We haven’t seen a home console try to mimic elements of the handheld console before. But if we did, it is probable that the market reaction would be similar to the handheld console trying to adopt home console elements. It would be seen as an anti-console and would be difficult to sell.

I think Nintendo is operating from the wrong premise with the design for Project Cliche. Nintendo is looking at market data that says people do not want to turn on the home console because someone is watching TV or something else. This is why the controllers have a screen so they can ‘stream’.

The winning answer is a home console that adopts the elements of the home console. This would mean many people surrounding one TV playing a game. This would emphasize local multiplayer. This would mean games like Wii Sports, Mario Kart Wii, and Super Mario Brothers 5. Note that these games were most responsible for pushing Wii hardware numbers.

This Project Cliche direction is going to be extremely unsatisfying to people who want a home console experience. Most of all, it will be extremely unsatisfying to the Wii Sports type players. How exactly is Nintendo going to bring the Wii Sports gamers to the Project Cliche?

What´s your opinion on what he thinks?

 

I think he's making a few assumptions, and that that's coloring his conclusion. For starters, I don't think we know yet just what use the touch control is, or how the streaming works. If it is true that the controllers are meant to double as, essentially, handhelds, it would mean that Cafe is breaching new territory, but it doesn't automatically follow that this defeats local multiplayer: anyone who's played Four Swords can tell you that good times can be had with friends like this, not to mention Monster Hunter on the PSP. My concern here would be the software. Developers have already demonstrated that they're mostly wedded to traditional gaming, and it sounds like delivering on Cafe's promise will require a radical rethink in how games are designed.

There's also the possibility that he's leaping to the wrong conclusions here, and that the controller is more akin to the GBA link that the Gamecube used. This WOULD mean "many people surrounding one TV," but I also think it would be the more awkward of the two choices if the games decided to utilize the touch controls in any meaningful way. Or there might be some other option that I'm not aware of, and all of this could be moot.

I'm willing to reserve judgment until next week, when we have a better grip on what the system is and how it functions, but I admit that I'm concerned. When the first details about the DS and Wii were announced, I could immediately understand what they were going for, and it was exciting. That's not the case with the 3DS or Cafe. I'm also concerned with a lot of what I've been hearing from Nintendo, and the word "tablet" in this press release is ringing a lot of bells, so I'm not optimistic.

To summarize, I don't have enough information to agree with Malstrom yet, and even if the info is correct I'm not sure he's set out a great case. He was initially wrong about the 3DS, and he's moved away from market analysis to "instinct" to explain why he's changed face there; unfortunately his reasoning seems to be getting more sloppy, disinterested, and shallow recently, (sadly, he's still better than most :-/). But it will only be four more days until we find out!



noname2200 said:
Play4Fun said:
noname2200 said:
Play4Fun said:

BS ROL! BS!  D=<

3D mario is not a big deal? Oh yeah, that must be why SMG 1 & 2 are the   games on Wii that people talk most about. Or why so many people are looking forward to see where they will take the next 3D Mario. Oh and both Galaxies sold about 8 to 10 mil respectively.

Just because they didn't sell as much as NSMBii, they're not worth it? You sound like those guys on the SeanMalstrom forum! They're fools! Fools I say! Don't be a fool too ROL!

Not to sound condescending, but outside of internet forums the Galaxy games are not the Wii games that "people talk most about."

It's not even close.

As to your last question, let me respond with a football analogy. Imagine your team has two QBs, Joe Montana and Donovan McNabb. If the season is just starting, why would you ever make McNabb your starter in lieu of Montana? You'd be crucified by the fans...

This forum isn't the only one I post on and the Galaxies are some of the most loved games on Wii (not that NSMBii isn't as well).

Out of the vast number of people who bought NSMBii, how many of them are willing to buy a $350 console to play a 2D Mario? Alot of them are more likely to pick up the console when it is cheaper. The 3D mario gamers on the other hand are likely to be early adopters, so there would be nothing wrong with having a 3D Mario at launch.

I'm not saying they will have a 3D Mario at launch, I don't care which we get or when. I'm just saying just because 2D Mario is the best selling one does not mean launch is the best time to release it. This console is  likely to come out above mass market price.

I also doubt fans would crucify them for launching a 3D Mario.

 

I was not and am not limiting "forums" to just vgchartz. It is in no way true that the Galaxy games are the most talked about Wii games; not only have several other games outsold them (often by more than double), but you'd be hard pressed to find them even mentioned outside of the internet.

For your second point, you have nothing but conjecture to back that up and, in point of fact, I strongly doubt that you're right. That audience has proven to be both more rabid and more loyal than 3D Mario's fanbase, and I don't see how you can argue otherwise. They literally built Nintendo, and they're much more massive: not catering to them right out of the gate is sheer idiocy. Again, Montana vs. McNabb.

Finally, you're right that they won't crucify Nintendo for that. They just won't buy the system in as many numbers. And I want to point out that while we're focusing this discussion on just Mario platformers, we're only doing so in order to get a convenient example to wrap our discussion around: the bigger issue many of us have is with the direction Nintendo has taken with the 3DS and seems to be taking with Cafe. The former fears have thus far proven to be justified, and I suspect the system will continue to be outpaced by the "third pillar" (something which IS shameful, and don't let the revisionists tell you otherwise) until and unless it changes its emphasis. The latter fears may prove groundless, since we haven't had any concrete details about Cafe yet, but judging from what Nintendo's been saying and doing recently I suspect Cafe may become another N64 or PS3. Time will tell.

The "revisionists," are the ones who are suddenly freaking out that the best-selling dedicated games device of all time with current market maturity and receiving continued support and price cuts is outselling the new, high-priced device that has not yet received its due share of support (though will be getting there quickly enough, as upcoming games lists can attest)

This has happened before in the past, but suddenly it becomes a problem to the point where we're calling the successor dead on arrival nary two months since its release. That's revisionism at its finest



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

The "revisionists," are the ones who are suddenly freaking out that the best-selling dedicated games device of all time with current market maturity and receiving continued support and price cuts is outselling the new, high-priced device that has not yet received its due share of support (though will be getting there quickly enough, as upcoming games lists can attest)

This has happened before in the past, but suddenly it becomes a problem to the point where we're calling the successor dead on arrival nary two months since its release. That's revisionism at its finest

I'm assuming you're not talking about the people who are comparing the launch-aligned performance of the two systems, and pointing out that the 3DS is lagging behind the DS at similar points in their lifetimes, notwithstanding the fact that one of the systems is the annointed successor to Nintendo's handheld line while the other was merely the "third pillar," whose success was so uncertain that Nintendo was working on the next Gameboy to continue its handheld dominance.

I assume instead that you're referring to people who are talking about how the legacy system is still running laps around the new system, even in Japan, notwithstanding the abundant oversupply of the 3DS. That is not the best method of analysis, no. Although while we're on the subject, two of the three big reasons for the 3DS' stumbling out of the gate were mentioned in passing. I'd like to point out that, much like the PS3, those problems were completely self-inflicted, which makes it difficult for me to feel too much sympathy.



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noname2200 said:
Mr Khan said:

The "revisionists," are the ones who are suddenly freaking out that the best-selling dedicated games device of all time with current market maturity and receiving continued support and price cuts is outselling the new, high-priced device that has not yet received its due share of support (though will be getting there quickly enough, as upcoming games lists can attest)

This has happened before in the past, but suddenly it becomes a problem to the point where we're calling the successor dead on arrival nary two months since its release. That's revisionism at its finest

I'm assuming you're not talking about the people who are comparing the launch-aligned performance of the two systems, and pointing out that the 3DS is lagging behind the DS at similar points in their lifetimes, notwithstanding the fact that one of the systems is the annointed successor to Nintendo's handheld line while the other was merely the "third pillar," whose success was so uncertain that Nintendo was working on the next Gameboy to continue its handheld dominance.

I assume instead that you're referring to people who are talking about how the legacy system is still running laps around the new system, even in Japan, notwithstanding the abundant oversupply of the 3DS. That is not the best method of analysis, no. Although while we're on the subject, two of the three big reasons for the 3DS' stumbling out of the gate were mentioned in passing. I'd like to point out that, much like the PS3, those problems were completely self-inflicted, which makes it difficult for me to feel too much sympathy.

Similar point in the lifetime is an unfair comparison to make. I've seen the line graph, i've seen the one bump that puts DS over 3DS overall. That bump is called Christmas 2004.

Now if the DS outsells the 3DS this holiday season (or if their first year as a total, launch-aligned sees DS out ahead), then we've got a problem. But launch-aligning at this point is of course going to fall into the DS' favor

I'm not saying the launch was perfect, just that Nintendo (much like Sony with the PS3) overestimated the appeal that the hardware itself would have, independent of any compelling software. I'm just saying that the system pushing less than the DS did with equally crappy lineups at a crappier time of year is no great cause for alarm

Another problem could potentially be if Nintendo puts all their stock in GameCube-style games for the 3DS this E3. Layton and Nintendogs are a good start, but too familiar. What this system is really screaming for is a sequel to Tomodachi Collection, which could take great advantage of streetpass and the system's broader internet connectivity.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

Similar point in the lifetime is an unfair comparison to make. I've seen the line graph, i've seen the one bump that puts DS over 3DS overall. That bump is called Christmas 2004.

Now if the DS outsells the 3DS this holiday season (or if their first year as a total, launch-aligned sees DS out ahead), then we've got a problem. But launch-aligning at this point is of course going to fall into the DS' favor

I'm not saying the launch was perfect, just that Nintendo (much like Sony with the PS3) overestimated the appeal that the hardware itself would have, independent of any compelling software. I'm just saying that the system pushing less than the DS did with equally crappy lineups at a crappier time of year is no great cause for alarm

Another problem could potentially be if Nintendo puts all their stock in GameCube-style games for the 3DS this E3. Layton and Nintendogs are a good start, but too familiar. What this system is really screaming for is a sequel to Tomodachi Collection, which could take great advantage of streetpass and the system's broader internet connectivity.

Does the launch aligned comparison factor in that the DS didn't launch in Europe before March 2005?



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Gamers Club

Mr Khan said:

Similar point in the lifetime is an unfair comparison to make. I've seen the line graph, i've seen the one bump that puts DS over 3DS overall. That bump is called Christmas 2004.

Here's Japan's chart: I no longer have the other two regions available thanks to VGC Pro (...), but from what I've heard the 3DS has done worse than the DS when launch-aligned there too. Take out that bump, and assume a similar curve. The reality remains the same: the second-rate, undersupported, not-really-our-next-system-guys system is on par, if not ahead, of the this-is-the-future-everyone! system. Shoot, the PSP is now tracking ahead of the 3DS, and that system stunk in Japan until Monster Hunter's arrival.

Mr Khan said:

Another problem could potentially be if Nintendo puts all their stock in GameCube-style games for the 3DS this E3.

This was actually the third, unspoken problem I alluded to earlier. To put it bluntly, this is at the heart of my concerns about the system since ,so far, ,everyone, first and third party, are treating it like this. Up to this point the system has emphasized things and features that I, and I think most of the market, doesn't really care for in its handhelds. And it emphasizes these things at a steep cost to things that really do matter to me and, I think, most of the market. The hardware issues are set in stone, but software can always turn around: both of the handhelds this (last?) generation changed course midstream, so who's to say the 3DS won't to?

Don't mistake me, I'm not saying the 3DS is the next Virtual Boy, who's fate is writ large. What I am saying, and what I have been saying since Nintendo's conference last E3, is that the system is not going to do particularly well if it continues to take the same tack. I'm hoping for a course correction: the captain may have started out in a vessel that's ill-suited to the journey, but perhaps if he changes course it will become smooth sailing. We'll know more about what's coming up in just four days, though.

As for how this relates to Cafe, from what little we know now I suspect Cafe will follow in the 3DS' footsteps. But again, it's just four days until we find out.



noname2200 said:
Mr Khan said:

Similar point in the lifetime is an unfair comparison to make. I've seen the line graph, i've seen the one bump that puts DS over 3DS overall. That bump is called Christmas 2004.

Here's Japan's chart: I no longer have the other two regions available thanks to VGC Pro (...), but from what I've heard the 3DS has done worse than the DS when launch-aligned there too. Take out that bump, and assume a similar curve. The reality remains the same: the second-rate, undersupported, not-really-our-next-system-guys system is on par, if not ahead, of the this-is-the-future-everyone! system. Shoot, the PSP is now tracking ahead of the 3DS, and that system stunk in Japan until Monster Hunter's arrival.

Mr Khan said:

Another problem could potentially be if Nintendo puts all their stock in GameCube-style games for the 3DS this E3.

This was actually the third, unspoken problem I alluded to earlier. To put it bluntly, this is at the heart of my concerns about the system since ,so far, ,everyone, first and third party, are treating it like this. Up to this point the system has emphasized things and features that I, and I think most of the market, doesn't really care for in its handhelds. And it emphasizes these things at a steep cost to things that really do matter to me and, I think, most of the market. The hardware issues are set in stone, but software can always turn around: both of the handhelds this (last?) generation changed course midstream, so who's to say the 3DS won't to?

Don't mistake me, I'm not saying the 3DS is the next Virtual Boy, who's fate is writ large. What I am saying, and what I have been saying since Nintendo's conference last E3, is that the system is not going to do particularly well if it continues to take the same tack. I'm hoping for a course correction: the captain may have started out in a vessel that's ill-suited to the journey, but perhaps if he changes course it will become smooth sailing. We'll know more about what's coming up in just four days, though.

As for how this relates to Cafe, from what little we know now I suspect Cafe will follow in the 3DS' footsteps. But again, it's just four days until we find out.

But could we really see what the DS became early on either? The same potential problems were there, a gimmick which was being ill-used and the device as a whole which merely seemed like a portal to pump out console-ish 3D games, and the signs of what the console would become had not yet emerged

I'm sorry if i seemed accusatory, i've just been more readily opposed to the more incorrigable Malstromites around here of late, who for about a week or so there completely twisted discourse around into something utterly toxic.

But i should really be writing my paper for International Trade right now...



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

But could we really see what the DS became early on either? The same potential problems were there, a gimmick which was being ill-used and the device as a whole which merely seemed like a portal to pump out console-ish 3D games, and the signs of what the console would become had not yet emerged

I'm sorry if i seemed accusatory, i've just been more readily opposed to the more incorrigable Malstromites around here of late, who for about a week or so there completely twisted discourse around into something utterly toxic.

But i should really be writing my paper for International Trade right now...

For your first paragraph, we actually could, or at least I did. When I first heard the details of the system, it was pretty easy for me to see what they were thinking and where the system's potential lay. It never seemed like a gimmick to me, although the initial game lineup was certainly disappointing, and I didn't buy one until late 2005, when games that delivered on that promise finally seemed imminent.

By contrast, I didn't "get," nor do I still "get" the 3DS. Having seen multiple 3D movies by then, including the one "made for" it, the entire thing really does still seem like a gimmick. I personally don't mind the slide pad itself, but it makes creating console-ish games much more plausible than it was on the DS. Anyone who's played Mario 64 DS could tell you that those games would vanish from the system soon, or the system would die; on the 3DS, those games are technically feasible, and right now it looks like they're going to be the crown jewel. Spotpass is a neat idea, but it's not very practical in the US, and it doesn't seem to actually add anything to the experience.

I take your point that the future may be different: I keep adding the "if things continue like this" qualifier for just that reason. I'm hoping that they do change, and if they do things should improve. This is the big reason I'm going to log in next week to see what goes on. But I admit that I'm not feeling confident right now.

And you still have papers to write? It's JUNE!!!