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So, Fire Emblem Three Houses turned out exactly as I feared...

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MTZehvor said:
Lonely_Dolphin said:

-1 or 2 to some of my stats isn't gonna make much of a difference. The problem with stats is just the base value overall are too high especially HP. Besides that's poor design if I have to go out of my way to make sure I'm not overleveled.

On any given interaction, no. But across an entire map? Being down 1/2 strength/magic points for every battle, 1/2 def/res, and especially speed can make a substantial difference. Think about it like this: Let's say your tank unit is 2 levels higher, and has a couple extra HP points, an extra strength point, two extra def points, and an extra speed point. If you send him out to bait a couple units, the post level unit can have anywhere from 4-6 more HP at the end of the fight, substantially more if the speed/strength stat impacts a double. 4-6 less HP at the bare minimum is significant though, and can be the difference between whether you can actually afford to bait out or not. Apply that to all your units across all interactions over an entire map and it adds up.

I wouldn't say that you have to especially go out of your way to make sure you're not overleveled. The game provides a recommended level for each map; just tone down the sidequests/paralogues if you're over it (or use units that you don't usually bring into story chapters) and you should be fine. Doesn't seem any more of a hassle than any other level based combat system, at least imo.

Perhaps if we were talking about Fates, but in 3 Houses terms like tank and baiting don't apply much in this game, atleast my main strategy has simply been to walk up and kill the enemy. A few less stats wont change that, it would take a complete overhaul of mechanics, namely removing the ranged meta.

You're telling me not to do paralogues. That would be me going out of my way lul. In Conquest, I could do paralogues and the maps would still pose sufficient challange, so why is it now my fault?

RolStoppable said:

The problem is in your end, just like it was with your crusade against Paper Mario: Color Splash where you had decided about the game long before you played it. Although I think that you never ended up playing that Wii U game and just kept hating based on the game itself. I haven't forgotten about your stubbornness in discussions.

Fixed! You can call me stubborn and my criticisms hate and other such nonsense that I could just as easily spin back to you, but implying my opinions come from anything but the game itself I wont allow. Also, the existence of older games doesn't make 3 Houses any less like Echoes so I'll be continuing to call it as such, you'll just have to deal with that, much like I deal with Fates being called a waifu sim.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
RolStoppable said:

The problem is in your end, just like it was with your crusade against Paper Mario: Color Splash where you had decided about the game long before you played it. Although I think that you never ended up playing that Wii U game and just kept hating based on the game itself. I haven't forgotten about your stubbornness in discussions.

Fixed! You can call me stubborn and my criticisms hate and other such nonsense that I could just as easily spin back to you, but implying my opinions come from anything but the game itself I wont allow. Also, the existence of older games doesn't make 3 Houses any less like Echoes so I'll be continuing to call it as such, you'll just have to deal with that, much like I deal with Fates being called a waifu sim.

The people who call Fates a waifu sim are just as wrong as you are about Three Houses.



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RolStoppable said:
Lonely_Dolphin said:

Fixed! You can call me stubborn and my criticisms hate and other such nonsense that I could just as easily spin back to you, but implying my opinions come from anything but the game itself I wont allow. Also, the existence of older games doesn't make 3 Houses any less like Echoes so I'll be continuing to call it as such, you'll just have to deal with that, much like I deal with Fates being called a waifu sim.

The people who call Fates a waifu sim are just as wrong as you are about Three Houses.

Believe me, I truely wish I could live in your fantasy where Three Houses provides even a grain of challenge.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
RolStoppable said:

There is just about nothing ripped straight from Echoes. Class changes and EXP gains were awful in Echoes and you don't have to deal with that kind of nonsense in Three Houses.

I am talking about skills of your own units. There are more than ever before, probably to make up for the lack of weapon triangle; there are skills to improve accuracy, evade and attack when using any given weapon type, so that's that. Aside from that, almost all of the skills from Awakening and Fates are returning, including those that notably boost a stat for initiating an attack. All that stuff helps to overpower the regular enemies. The flipside is that special enemies like beasts and bosses are loaded with skills as well.

As for everyone being tanky, either you had extreme luck with stat growths or you bought lots of boosters and applied them.

Battles with a red question mark are entirely optional, so you've done some grinding. When you skip important days during the month, your units still gain skill EXP. You gain even more by choosing the seminar option each weekend, so if all you want to do during the month is about EXP, you can do a month in a few minutes. The most time-consuming activities in the monastery are all about support points.

We can't have a civil discussion until you bring down that shield of ignorance you've got up. No weapon triangle, Range Meta, overall tankier units, magic learned rather than being a weapon, combat arts, turn wheel, promotion increasing stats if below par, shields and rings, and so ons, all from Echoes.

JWeinCom said:

I'm at Chapter 15.  Which I think is fairly close to the end for my route.  

HP + 5 isn't really that big of a deal with the amount of damage enemies do.  It's nice in the early game, but  All units definitely cannot tank hits.  Unless I'm just drastically underleveled or something.  My magic units are going to die around 100% of the time if left within range of a physical attacker.  My bulkier units can usually survive one enemy attack, two if I'm lucky.  Shields can help, but the better ones have a really high weight, which leaves you less likely to double attack and more likely to get double attacked.  And that means sacrificing another item. By contrast in Fates, I would literally send Ryoma out into the battlefield completely unequipped (so he didn't get the kills) and let enemies wail on him.  

By bows and magic that reach five range, the only such stuff I've encountered is the meteor spell (which is limited to one use) and the deadeye ability (with sniper class).  Deadeye uses up a lot of durability and weakens your attack significantly.  Also has a pretty low hit rate so you'll need to have an ability increasing hit percentage to use it effectively.  (hit rate in general goes down the farther away you are).  Good for softening up or finishing off units, but it's pretty much never going to one shot anything, so unless you send someone else in, you're going to wind up getting hit on the next turn.  I still haven't gotten anyone to bow knight, so we'll see if that maybe makes bows too powerful.

As for gauntlets, they double attack, but their mt is really low.  For example, silver gauntlets have an mt of 4 vs a silver lance having an mt of 13.  Plus while the other weapons get a mt bonus for their + states, but the gauntlets don't.   They also have imo the worst combat arts.  In the early game they felt overpowered, but less and less as the game goes on.  

You're also ignoring many features that the other games had that this one doesn't.  You can't pair units which was absolutely broken in Awakening, and still a huge bonus in fates.  There are less luck based abilities.  Your crests kind of serve the same function, but they're not as overpowered as things like Ignis, Aether, or Dragon Fang.  You can also only use rally on one ally at a time instead of boosting them all. 

Aside from the fact that you can use divine pulse (which is a feature I like a lot), I'm finding the game to be overall more difficult than the 3DS entries.  In Awakening and Fates, I found the early missions to be really tough, but once I settled in and figured out which abilities to exploit, the later missions became very easy.  I'm finding the opposite here where I  breezed through the early missions, but started having a lot of trouble (minor spoilers) after the time skip.  

Lysithia is my frailest unit and she has 44 HP and 13 def (14 with current battalion) and is not even max level yet... What that means is an enemy has to have a whopping 59 attack to one shot her. Needless to say most enemys don't deal that much. And no, it wasn't lucky growths that got her that, promotion increases your base stats if they're below a certain threshold. If I wanted to I could give her a shield and a battalion with higher defense, but with +2 range from Thyrus she rarely gets attacked anyway. So if even my frailest unit can take a hit, imagine everyone else lul. Surely in your Fates example you mean Xander? Ryoma's defense is just average, on higher difficulities he'll die in 2-3 hits on his own. Eitherway, they're the head honchos, of course they'll be strong. Units like Elise and Azura however will die in 1 shot to just about anything, and overall most units die in 2 hits on their own as enemy damage caps between 40-50 while your units at max level have HP around 40 with 20-30 def.

Archer/Sniper have +1 Range, Bow Knight has +2 Range, so you can reach 4-5 when combined with Longbow and arts like Curved Shot and Hunter's Volley. There are 3 range spells like Thoron, and items that increase magic range. As for Gauntlets, using your example, a unit with base 25 str will have 50atk with training gauntlets, 39atk with Silver Lance+. That's the power of innate double attackin. As said already, they're not as good against armor, but otherwise will deal just as much if not more dmg, especially since their lightweight makes them the easiest to double with.

Tbh it's been ages since I played Awakening. That game is really broken and unbalanced as well, but I do remember actually feeling pressured and needing to think carefully about what I was doing. Then again it was my first Fire Emblem. Fates though clearly has more strategic depth. Even if you found it easier somehow (Birthright n Revelations sure, but Conquest?) that doesn't necessarily mean it's less involved. I mean for one you generally can't kill enemies without them attacking you, which is most relevant in a game where units die in 1-2 hits.



No I definitely meant Ryoma.  His evasion was crazy high so most enemies didn't hit him in the first place, and even when they did, they generally didn't do enough to make more than a slight dent.  If you sent him in equipped, it gets even more ridiculous because Astra fills up the partner gauge so he's always getting free hits.   Of course that works with Xander too, but not quite as well, since Conquest has tougher enemies in general, and Xander will actually have to take the hits.  

To your Lytheria example, you didn't mention speed which is important.  Or resistance for that matter, since there's more than one way to be attacked.  At any rate I opened a map with a suggested level of 29.  There is a unit with 62 attack and a brave weapon.  There are also 6 enemies with an attack above 50.  For this map in particular those happen to be Wyverns.  So, very hard to actually keep out of their range.  So even on this map, which I think you're a bit overleveled for, enemies are not far off from killing in one hit, and if you're within the range of two enemies, you're done.

But that's your frailest unit.  Lets go with mine.  My frailest physical unit at the recommended level has 37 HP and 13 Def.  So, an enemy will need 50 attack to KO them.  There are on this stage, 6 units that can do that, the only ones that really can't here are the monsters (which obviously I can't KO in one turn) and mounted bow units.  It'd be broken if literally everything can OHKO my units, but most of the physical ones can, and any combination of two enemies should KO if left in range.

My bulkiest unit (who is two levels over the recommendations) has 50 HP with 25 Def a shield for 4, and a batallion that gives her 6.  So... effectively 35 def. There's nothing that's going to OHKO me... but she's slow enough that some of the enemies here should get two shots in.  One of the ones that have 55 attack will leave me with 10 HP if they hit me.  Which means if there's one other enemy nearby, she's done.  Her rsl is only 17 so against mage units she's worse off.  Even with her, I have to be cautious when attacking.  

My example was using the base silver lance, not the +.  That minor point aside, the more important thing is that gauntlets will not give you 50 Atk, it will give you 25 attack two times, which is a big difference because that means the opponents defense is being factored in twice.  Taking the closest unit on this map, and my grappler into account.  My grappler has has 26 str, 23 speed, and closest enemy has 21 prt and 20 speed.  Gauntlets are going to do 18 damage with silver gauntlets, as opposed to 18 with the silver lance.  I swear I didn't look for a particular enemy to make it work out like that, it just happened (although since fist faire activates twice, gauntlets actually have the edge by 5 damage).  If the enemy had one def higher, it would do 16, and the lance would do 17.  And if it went in the other direction, the gauntlets would have a bigger advantage.  Of course, you also have to factor in that gauntlets have lower weight, but their combat arts kind of suck, and they don't have a killer variant to my knowledge.  All in all, they're just not all that, particularly in the late game.  Oh, and of course once you get brave weapons, you'll probably be kicking yourself if you put all your eggs in the gauntlet basket.  They're just good for early game, but then the early game is kind of easy either way.  

Again, if you're just mindlessly attacking the nearest units and having success, either Golden Deer is insanely easy, or you've been blessed with amazing RNG.  Nobody else seems to be having the same experience as you.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 07 August 2019

Lonely_Dolphin said:
RolStoppable said:

The people who call Fates a waifu sim are just as wrong as you are about Three Houses.

Believe me, I truely wish I could live in your fantasy where Three Houses provides even a grain of challenge.

And yet there's other people who feel challenged by it, so there's truly a possibility that the problem is actually you, you became so good at the game that you don't feel challenged in the same way as others.

Matter of perspective, my dear.



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Jumpin said:
I guess I should rephrase my question.
1. Is the game fun to play with zero save-scumming (going back to earlier points when the result of an action is undesirable) and perma-death on?
2. Does the game have a lot of grindy/chore-like tasks required to build characters? Or is straight-up strategic action + story all the way through? (with characters growing in stats along the way)

1.  Depends on what you find fun I guess.  I wound up using the rewind feature alot, although that may be because I know its there and wind up being less cautious about planning, and taking more risks.  But if I were really intent on never using it I think I could still manage.

2.  Yeah, it does.  If you really want to micromanage your units, there is waaaaay more stuff to do than in other games.  I actually liked it, but that's me.  You can completely skip this aspect if you really want, and the game will do it for you, but then you lose a bit of control.  



Kai_Mao said:
JWeinCom said:

Not sure exactly what you mean by that.  The game takes the rewind feature from Echoes (divine pulse) so you don't have to worry about having to start a whole mission over because of some stupid rng.  

Eh... you're basically playing on easy mode.  And that's fine if you enjoy it more, but if your complaint is that the game is too easy... that's kind of not valid.

That is an unusual stance..If there is no permadeath on normal mode, I don't see how the strategy aspects of FE can be fully realized. 

Even on normal mode, permadeath adds that incentive to be careful on who you place on the battlefield, how you prep them, and where you place them as the turns add up.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean.  But, some people may just like an easier experience, and play it more like other JRPGs than an SRPG.  Some people don't like strategy as much.  



Jumpin said:
I guess I should rephrase my question.
1. Is the game fun to play with zero save-scumming (going back to earlier points when the result of an action is undesirable) and perma-death on?
2. Does the game have a lot of grindy/chore-like tasks required to build characters? Or is straight-up strategic action + story all the way through? (with characters growing in stats along the way)

1. It's about as fun with those options as without, they're basically just QoL features. I think my answer in the other thread summed it up...but I personally don't see any difference between choosing not to use it here and just not being able to use it in the classic games. The only kicker is the relatively small cast size, but its offset by more unit variety so you'll really feel like you have more options.

2. It has a lot of optional modes that allow you to learn more about the world and the characters outside of battle. I personally enjoy them but the game makes it clear how to skip through early. 

As for difficulty, I haven't done the same route as the OP, but I'm playing Blue Lions on Hard-Classic and I'm finding it to hit the sweet spot challenge-wise, where it's definitely not a cakewalk (Fire Emblem Awakening), but nor am I in a constant state of stress to the point I find it more annoying than fun (Hector Hard Mode in FE7). We'll see if it stays that way, but as someone who's a relative veteran of the franchise, I find it to be more than a worthwhile challenge that still is enjoyable to play.



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JWeinCom said:



No I definitely meant Ryoma.  His evasion was crazy high so most enemies didn't hit him in the first place, and even when they did, they generally didn't do enough to make more than a slight dent.  Of course that works with Xander too, but not quite as well, since Conquest has tougher enemies in general, and Xander will actually have to take the hits.  

To your Lytheria example, you didn't mention speed which is important.  Or resistance for that matter, since there's more than one way to be attacked.  At any rate I opened a map with a suggested level of 29.  There is a unit with 62 attack and a brave weapon.  There are also 6 enemies with an attack above 50.  For this map in particular those happen to be Wyverns.  So, very hard to actually keep out of their range.  So even on this map, which I think you're a bit overleveled for, enemies are not far off from killing in one hit, and if you're within the range of two enemies, you're done.

But that's your frailest unit.  Lets go with mine.  My frailest physical unit at the recommended level has 37 HP and 13 Def.  So, an enemy will need 50 attack to KO them.  There are on this stage, 6 units that can do that, the only ones that really can't here are the monsters (which obviously I can't KO in one turn) and mounted bow units.  It'd be broken if literally everything can OHKO my units, but most of the physical ones can, and any combination of two enemies should KO if left in range.

My bulkiest unit (who is two levels over the recommendations) has 50 HP with 25 Def a shield for 4, and a batallion that gives her 6.  So... effectively 35 def. There's nothing that's going to OHKO me... but she's slow enough that some of the enemies here should get two shots in.  One of the ones that have 55 attack will leave me with 10 HP if they hit me.  Which means if there's one other enemy nearby, she's done.  Her rsl is only 17 so against mage units she's worse off.  Even with her, I have to be cautious when attacking.  

My example was using the base silver lance, not the +.  That minor point aside, the more important thing is that gauntlets will not give you 50 Atk, it will give you 25 attack two times, which is a big difference because that means the opponents defense is being factored in twice.  Taking the closest unit on this map, and my grappler into account.  My grappler has has 26 str, 23 speed, and closest enemy has 21 prt and 20 speed.  Gauntlets are going to do 18 damage with silver gauntlets, as opposed to 18 with the silver lance.  I swear I didn't look for a particular enemy to make it work out like that, it just happened (although since fist faire activates twice, gauntlets actually have the edge by 5 damage).  If the enemy had one def higher, it would do 16, and the lance would do 17.  And if it went in the other direction, the gauntlets would have a bigger advantage.  Of course, you also have to factor in that gauntlets have lower weight, but their combat arts kind of suck, and they don't have a killer variant to my knowledge.  All in all, they're just not all that, particularly in the late game.  Oh, and of course once you get brave weapons, you'll probably be kicking yourself if you put all your eggs in the gauntlet basket.  They're just good for early game, but then the early game is kind of easy either way.  

Again, if you're just mindlessly attacking the nearest units and having success, either Golden Deer is insanely easy, or you've been blessed with amazing RNG.  Nobody else seems to be having the same experience as you.

Yes Lysithia will die if in range of 2 dudes, but that's where the range meta comes in, making it easy to wipe out a group of enemies all at once, leaving no one left who can kill you. I exaggerate a bit when I say mindless, there is a little method, namely just making sure all relevant enemies are in range of my units so I can kill them all, but not as much thought is required as I'd like. There are people here who have already said the game is easy, and looking on Reddit and Youtube even more agree. If you wanna believe we were all blessed with god luck then fair enough, there's no way to change a person's mind on that, but know that is a poor argument as it goes both ways, I could just as easily say you've been cursed with bad luck.

Mar1217 said:
Lonely_Dolphin said:

Believe me, I truely wish I could live in your fantasy where Three Houses provides even a grain of challenge.

And yet there's other people who feel challenged by it, so there's truly a possibility that the problem is actually you, you became so good at the game that you don't feel challenged in the same way as others.

Matter of perspective, my dear.

That goes both ways mate, i.e. I could just say those people are so bad at the game, but I'm better than that lul. When comparing to previous titles though it's not a matter of perspective but of cold hard facts and numbers. A person can say "I found Echoes to be even harder than Fates" and that's fine, but you can't say "In Fates I killed an enemy from 5 titles away," well you can but it'd be a lie.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
MTZehvor said:

On any given interaction, no. But across an entire map? Being down 1/2 strength/magic points for every battle, 1/2 def/res, and especially speed can make a substantial difference. Think about it like this: Let's say your tank unit is 2 levels higher, and has a couple extra HP points, an extra strength point, two extra def points, and an extra speed point. If you send him out to bait a couple units, the post level unit can have anywhere from 4-6 more HP at the end of the fight, substantially more if the speed/strength stat impacts a double. 4-6 less HP at the bare minimum is significant though, and can be the difference between whether you can actually afford to bait out or not. Apply that to all your units across all interactions over an entire map and it adds up.

I wouldn't say that you have to especially go out of your way to make sure you're not overleveled. The game provides a recommended level for each map; just tone down the sidequests/paralogues if you're over it (or use units that you don't usually bring into story chapters) and you should be fine. Doesn't seem any more of a hassle than any other level based combat system, at least imo.

Perhaps if we were talking about Fates, but in 3 Houses terms like tank and baiting don't apply much in this game, atleast my main strategy has simply been to walk up and kill the enemy. A few less stats wont change that, it would take a complete overhaul of mechanics, namely removing the ranged meta.

You're telling me not to do paralogues. That would be me going out of my way lul. In Conquest, I could do paralogues and the maps would still pose sufficient challange, so why is it now my fault?

The point is that if your unit is moved up and kills an enemy, it's going to draw retaliatory attacks in return. Story maps in 3H, especially post timeskip, are designed where even if you one shot enemies, you're going to trigger usually multiple retaliatory attacks from other enemy units (often more). Many of these are going to be units that are themselves in the range of others, so moving to strike them just puts whatever character you use to hit them in even more danger. Chapters 13, 19, and 20 all especially notable examples of this, along with other chapters where ballista/magic garrisons exist that are out of any single unit's move space. If your unit can consistently tank 3, 4, even 5 attacks being initiated by the enemy in a single turn in a Fire Emblem game, you're either significantly overleveled, you've gotten extremely lucky with growth rates, or you're playing Awakening with maxed pair up supports. Obvious exception is if you've got a def/res tank or something and all the enemy units are physical/magic, but that doesn't really seem to be what you're talking about here.

Personally I'd just be curious to see an example of what you're talking about tbh, if you can maybe take a picture from a chapter you play on later. Lysithea and whoever else you have as a mage are certainly capable distance killers, but the sheer number of flying/cavalry enemies that can one shot her means you either can't just place her willy nilly without getting offed, and those characters are usually far enough away to the point where they can't be killed without drawing their own degree of retaliatory fire.

I'm not telling you to not do paralogues; just maybe focus on getting the majority of exp with characters who aren't higher level. I'm also not saying it's "your fault," but a simple aspect of game design with optional battles and a leveling system is that you're never going to be able to perfectly balance maps for all playstyles. Either you balance it assuming people have done paralogues/optional maps consistently and risk making it too difficult for people who haven't, or balance it assuming people haven't and risk making it too easy for those who did use optional maps. Fates leaned more towards the former, 3H leans more towards the latter. But this is something that all strategy games and, dare I say, all RPGs themselves struggle with.

Last edited by MTZehvor - on 08 August 2019