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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - NATAL Changing the WorldatCES 2010!!!

MontanaHatchet on 18 January 2010

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Look at Avinash in this thread with his pretentious BS about understanding the market. You can make reasons for Natal not succeeding, but Microsoft is definitely making efforts to appeal to the casual audience. When the Wii was launched, Nintendo launched core-type games, at least by Avinash's standards (Twilight Princess, Excite Truck) as well as casual games (Wii Sports, Warioware, Wii Play). Microsoft is a smart company, and they will do the same. I don't want to get sucked into this argument, because I'm sure you'll just go on and on about how well you understand the market and quote business experts (like you just did and do frequently). Seriously, haven't your bans taught you anything? We get it already. Nintendo understands the market. You understand the market. No one else does. Shut up already.



 

 

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Fei-Hung on 18 January 2010
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Fei-Hung said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
^ I'm afraid you still don't get it, they can say the phrase of wanting to expand the audience, but the proof is in the games they have shown, they've adapted NATAL to be used in racers, FPS, skateboarding games, among others, these aren't going to get them to the downmarket. They are still designing NATAL experiences around the core. They are still following the same strategy I highlighted earlier, of starting in the core and then trying to move to the downmarket, a plan that has not worked for them all this gen.

they have showed tech demo's of what natal may be able to accomplish, justlike the tech demo of what the ps wand may be able to do, nothing more.

If i take what youhave written above, i can apply the same to the wii:

mariokart= racing

various sports games= wii sports

conduit and house of dead= shooters

 

using logic, it one can question the following:

how will Ubisoft be able to develop 11 games for the core, when the core expect high production values? in the time given to complete 11 games for natal, they wont be even be abe to release 1 game of the likes of PoP or Splinter Cell.

Burnout on Natal was a dumbed down version- no boost ability, no explosion ability, no after touch ability.

the ads shown with a racing game and sports game was aimed at the casual. evidence is within the video where they show a family using natal for family games, casual games and non-game related ways of implementing Natal. there was not a single moment in the add where it was aimed for the hardcore gameing audience.

the half life video was questionable and there is no evidence to say it is natal compatible.

 

I am not saying there wont be any core natalgames, i am just saying that other than speculation and quotes that can be interpretated either way, everything we have is pretty much speculation.

Mario Kart is a very different creature than burnout, Wii sports is different than grand slam tennis, the Nintendo Wii games are designed with the values of the downmarket, the other games are not, conduit and house of the dead are third party titles that haven't done very well, and haven't reached the downmarket Wii audience.  Fable 3 is definitely core, its not going to reach the downmarket.

i repeat, the natal burnout was dumbed down to casual. it consisted of acceleration and breaking, none of the xtras what make burnout burnout were not there! in fact it looks like it pretty much played the same as mario kart. u steer and step on gas and breaks lol

every other trailer shown was causal: the pong like game doesnt look hardcore, nor does spashing paint on walls, or changing a car tire pike poking hand foreward, or choosing what clothes to where.

regardless of whether conduit and house of the dead sold well or not, they were not casual games and nor was mario kart, unless u are saying mario kart on the snes and n64 was casual too.

ur arguments defy all logic. i'm surprised jagged sac hasn't killed himself from banging his head against a brick wall yet lol

 

 



Avinash_Tyagi on 18 January 2010
JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:

Ok, so now we can throw out all quotes and concentrate on the games? You look at the E3 Natal video and you think "they are really going after the core with Natal"? Ricochet is core? That paint thing was core?  Milo is core?

I find it very interesting that you are possibly the only person around who thinks Natal is for core 360 gamers. Hell, most people around here can't even think of core games to make for it.

Fable 3 is for the downmarket?

And Fable 3 can be played without Natal.  Peter said it is still a controller experience.  Anything else?

But that still illustrates my point, you point to three tech demos, and say its targeting the downmarket, I can point to ones that says core (Fable 3, burnout, grand slam tennis, Half-life 2), and whether or not its one option, its actually being implemented in a core game Fable 3, those three tech demos you named, ricochet, paint and milo are not actual games at least not yet, Fable 3 is a game, a core game, and its being used there, right now its clear NATAL is being used for the core, whether anything is coming that will make an attempt at the downmarket, even a birdman attempt, is still unknown.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Fei-Hung on 18 January 2010
MontanaHatchet said:
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Look at Avinash in this thread with his pretentious BS about understanding the market. You can make reasons for Natal not succeeding, but Microsoft is definitely making efforts to appeal to the casual audience. When the Wii was launched, Nintendo launched core-type games, at least by Avinash's standards (Twilight Princess, Excite Truck) as well as casual games (Wii Sports, Warioware, Wii Play). Microsoft is a smart company, and they will do the same. I don't want to get sucked into this argument, because I'm sure you'll just go on and on about how well you understand the market and quote business experts (like you just did and do frequently). Seriously, haven't your bans taught you anything? We get it already. Nintendo understands the market. You understand the market. No one else does. Shut up already.

i salute your wisdom and i fully agree.

OT: it may be a success, can we not just wait and see instead of making prophecies?



Avinash_Tyagi on 18 January 2010
Fei-Hung said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Fei-Hung said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
^ I'm afraid you still don't get it, they can say the phrase of wanting to expand the audience, but the proof is in the games they have shown, they've adapted NATAL to be used in racers, FPS, skateboarding games, among others, these aren't going to get them to the downmarket. They are still designing NATAL experiences around the core. They are still following the same strategy I highlighted earlier, of starting in the core and then trying to move to the downmarket, a plan that has not worked for them all this gen.

they have showed tech demo's of what natal may be able to accomplish, justlike the tech demo of what the ps wand may be able to do, nothing more.

If i take what youhave written above, i can apply the same to the wii:

mariokart= racing

various sports games= wii sports

conduit and house of dead= shooters

 

using logic, it one can question the following:

how will Ubisoft be able to develop 11 games for the core, when the core expect high production values? in the time given to complete 11 games for natal, they wont be even be abe to release 1 game of the likes of PoP or Splinter Cell.

Burnout on Natal was a dumbed down version- no boost ability, no explosion ability, no after touch ability.

the ads shown with a racing game and sports game was aimed at the casual. evidence is within the video where they show a family using natal for family games, casual games and non-game related ways of implementing Natal. there was not a single moment in the add where it was aimed for the hardcore gameing audience.

the half life video was questionable and there is no evidence to say it is natal compatible.

 

I am not saying there wont be any core natalgames, i am just saying that other than speculation and quotes that can be interpretated either way, everything we have is pretty much speculation.

Mario Kart is a very different creature than burnout, Wii sports is different than grand slam tennis, the Nintendo Wii games are designed with the values of the downmarket, the other games are not, conduit and house of the dead are third party titles that haven't done very well, and haven't reached the downmarket Wii audience.  Fable 3 is definitely core, its not going to reach the downmarket.

i repeat, the natal burnout was dumbed down to casual. it consisted of acceleration and breaking, none of the xtras what make burnout burnout were not there! in fact it looks like it pretty much played the same as mario kart. u steer and step on gas and breaks lol

every other trailer shown was causal: the pong like game doesnt look hardcore, nor does spashing paint on walls, or changing a car tire pike poking hand foreward, or choosing what clothes to where.

regardless of whether conduit and house of the dead sold well or not, they were not casual games and nor was mario kart, unless u are saying mario kart on the snes and n64 was casual too.

ur arguments defy all logic. i'm surprised jagged sac hasn't killed himself from banging his head against a brick wall yet lol

 

 

You don't make a game downmarket by dumbing it down, also I didn't say Mario kart was casual, I said downmarket, there is a big difference



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

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Avinash_Tyagi on 18 January 2010
MontanaHatchet said:
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Look at Avinash in this thread with his pretentious BS about understanding the market. You can make reasons for Natal not succeeding, but Microsoft is definitely making efforts to appeal to the casual audience. When the Wii was launched, Nintendo launched core-type games, at least by Avinash's standards (Twilight Princess, Excite Truck) as well as casual games (Wii Sports, Warioware, Wii Play). Microsoft is a smart company, and they will do the same. I don't want to get sucked into this argument, because I'm sure you'll just go on and on about how well you understand the market and quote business experts (like you just did and do frequently). Seriously, haven't your bans taught you anything? We get it already. Nintendo understands the market. You understand the market. No one else does. Shut up already.

The difference is, that Nintendo, when it launched the Wii, launched with a game that was exactly what the downmarket wanted, bundled right in, they weren't trying to reach the core and then move downmarket, they were moving for the downmarket first, then trying to make inroads up



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

JaggedSac on 18 January 2010
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:

Ok, so now we can throw out all quotes and concentrate on the games? You look at the E3 Natal video and you think "they are really going after the core with Natal"? Ricochet is core? That paint thing was core?  Milo is core?

I find it very interesting that you are possibly the only person around who thinks Natal is for core 360 gamers. Hell, most people around here can't even think of core games to make for it.

Fable 3 is for the downmarket?

And Fable 3 can be played without Natal.  Peter said it is still a controller experience.  Anything else?

But that still illustrates my point, you point to three tech demos, and say its targeting the downmarket, I can point to ones that says core (Fable 3, burnout, grand slam tennis, Half-life 2), and whether or not its one option, its actually being implemented in a core game Fable 3, those three tech demos you named, ricochet, paint and milo are not actual games at least not yet, Fable 3 is a game, a core game, and its being used there, right now its clear NATAL is being used for the core, whether anything is coming that will make an attempt at the downmarket, even a birdman attempt, is still unknown.

You are very, very selective about anything that you read dude.  Once again, Fable 3 is a controller based experience, we do not know how Natal will be utilized.  This is in NO WAY an indication that Natal will be mainly for core games.  In fact, Fable 3 plus MS promotional material would indicate that they are trying to cater to all audiences at the same time.  What a terrible strategy that is huh?

I haven't even seen Grand Slam Tennis for Natal.  Link please.  Sounds like it would be cool.

But, I guess you are right.  You understand the market better than anyone else.  You understand Natal's strategy before anyone else.  You are amazing.  I bow before you.



JaggedSac on 18 January 2010
Fei-Hung said:

i repeat, the natal burnout was dumbed down to casual. it consisted of acceleration and breaking, none of the xtras what make burnout burnout were not there! in fact it looks like it pretty much played the same as mario kart. u steer and step on gas and breaks lol

every other trailer shown was causal: the pong like game doesnt look hardcore, nor does spashing paint on walls, or changing a car tire pike poking hand foreward, or choosing what clothes to where.

regardless of whether conduit and house of the dead sold well or not, they were not casual games and nor was mario kart, unless u are saying mario kart on the snes and n64 was casual too.

ur arguments defy all logic. i'm surprised jagged sac hasn't killed himself from banging his head against a brick wall yet lol

 

 

I am close :)  I have never noticed this forum member before, but from Montana's post, this is common place.  I should just let it drop.



Avinash_Tyagi on 18 January 2010
JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:

Ok, so now we can throw out all quotes and concentrate on the games? You look at the E3 Natal video and you think "they are really going after the core with Natal"? Ricochet is core? That paint thing was core?  Milo is core?

I find it very interesting that you are possibly the only person around who thinks Natal is for core 360 gamers. Hell, most people around here can't even think of core games to make for it.

Fable 3 is for the downmarket?

And Fable 3 can be played without Natal.  Peter said it is still a controller experience.  Anything else?

But that still illustrates my point, you point to three tech demos, and say its targeting the downmarket, I can point to ones that says core (Fable 3, burnout, grand slam tennis, Half-life 2), and whether or not its one option, its actually being implemented in a core game Fable 3, those three tech demos you named, ricochet, paint and milo are not actual games at least not yet, Fable 3 is a game, a core game, and its being used there, right now its clear NATAL is being used for the core, whether anything is coming that will make an attempt at the downmarket, even a birdman attempt, is still unknown.

You are very, very selective about anything that you read dude.  Once again, Fable 3 is a controller based experience, we do not know how Natal will be utilized.  This is in NO WAY an indication that Natal will be mainly for core games.  In fact, Fable 3 plus MS promotional material would indicate that they are trying to cater to all audiences at the same time.  What a terrible strategy that is huh?

I haven't even seen Grand Slam Tennis for Natal.  Link please.  Sounds like it would be cool.

But, I guess you are right.  You understand the market better than anyone else.  You understand Natal's strategy before anyone else.  You are amazing.  I bow before you.

http://kotaku.com/5359983/peter-moore-ea-sports-tennis-to-use-natal-sony-motion-control

 

You don't make a game like Fable appeal to the downmarket just by changing the way its controlled, the game still doesn't have the same values, the downmarket isn't looking for immersive games like Fable.

Actually Fable 3, plus GST, plus Burnout, plus HL2, indicate that yeah it is being used primarily for core games.

 



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

JaggedSac on 18 January 2010
Avinash_Tyagi said:

http://kotaku.com/5359983/peter-moore-ea-sports-tennis-to-use-natal-sony-motion-control

 

You don't make a game like Fable appeal to the downmarket just by changing the way its controlled, the game still doesn't have the same values, the downmarket isn't looking for immersive games like Fable.

Actually Fable 3, plus GST, plus Burnout, plus HL2, indicate that yeah it is being used primarily for core games.

 

Oh shit, Burnout and HL2 Natal bound confirmed!?!?  You heard it here first folks.  FPS games can and will be done with Natal.

 

Oh and thanks for the GST news.  That should be cool.  Wonder if you have to actually run around to hit the ball.  Hopefully it is at least configurable.  Not sure how this would be considered a core game though.  And it definitely isn't an indication of MS's plans for the system since, A) it is third party, and B) it is on the Wii and will be on PS3 as well.