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Forums - Gaming Discussion - WRPGs vs. JRPGs: The Art of Story Telling

shio said:
ktchong said:
Gnizmo said:

WRPGs give the illusion of choice. In the end you get the same linear story 99% of the time though, with a bunch of side-quests. Maybe I just played the wrong ones, but every time I try one I get the same main story regardless of the "choices" I make plus or minus a few worthless dialogue changes. The story plays out ultimately in the exact same fashion regardless of which worthless side quests you have done. I would kill for a game that offered true choices and actually had a dynamic story.

The "illusion" of choice is better than a strictly linear gameplay with no choice.

Some WRPGs do offer some real choices.  Let's use Mass Effect as the  example again.  At one point, your main character has to sacrifice one of the two key characters: Ashley or Kaiden.  One of them has to die.  The two characters offer very different  independent plotlines -- and whoever you sacrifices will not appear in Mass Effect 2.  I think that is a very significant choice.

JRPGs often do NOT even let the players choose the main character's name, appearance, class, specializations, starting stats, diagloue and behaviors.  That's ZERO choice, absolutely no choices or whatever.

 

Actually Mass Effect is a terrible example. Mass Effect is an extremely linear RPG with very few choices, nowhere near the quality of the recent The Witcher or Dragon Age.

I'd just like to intercede here and say that a lot of people, who claim to be mega WRPG fans, will turn around and say that Dragon Age is nothing more than a flashy version of Baulders Gate with better graphics and less options (fewer classes and skills).  Note, I'm not saying this is my opinion, just what I'm hearing from a lot of WRPG fans.

As for the person you quoted, yet again there's another misconception of JRPGs lumped into an absolute.  There's multiple JRPGs that allow you to customize your characters attributes, from Phantasy Star to Dragon Quest.  Why in Dragon Quest III alone, way back in 1989, you could even change their mood, which would alter their stats while leveling.

If you haven't figured it out, Dragon Quest has a very WRPG styled engine.  Which did tons of things you keep praising WRPGs for doing...anywhere from 15-20 years ago.  All of you who keep lumping 'all JRPGs' into these absolute statements need to do some research.



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Kenryoku_Maxis said:
shio said:
ktchong said:
Gnizmo said:

WRPGs give the illusion of choice. In the end you get the same linear story 99% of the time though, with a bunch of side-quests. Maybe I just played the wrong ones, but every time I try one I get the same main story regardless of the "choices" I make plus or minus a few worthless dialogue changes. The story plays out ultimately in the exact same fashion regardless of which worthless side quests you have done. I would kill for a game that offered true choices and actually had a dynamic story.

The "illusion" of choice is better than a strictly linear gameplay with no choice.

Some WRPGs do offer some real choices.  Let's use Mass Effect as the  example again.  At one point, your main character has to sacrifice one of the two key characters: Ashley or Kaiden.  One of them has to die.  The two characters offer very different  independent plotlines -- and whoever you sacrifices will not appear in Mass Effect 2.  I think that is a very significant choice.

JRPGs often do NOT even let the players choose the main character's name, appearance, class, specializations, starting stats, diagloue and behaviors.  That's ZERO choice, absolutely no choices or whatever. 

Actually Mass Effect is a terrible example. Mass Effect is an extremely linear RPG with very few choices, nowhere near the quality of the recent The Witcher or Dragon Age.

I'd just like to intercede here and say that a lot of people, who claim to be mega WRPG fans, will turn around and say that Dragon Age is nothing more than a flashy version of Baulders Gate with better graphics and less options (fewer classes and skills).  Note, I'm not saying this is my opinion, just what I'm hearing from a lot of WRPG fans.

As for the person you quoted, yet again there's another misconception of JRPGs lumped into an absolute.  There's multiple JRPGs that allow you to customize your characters attributes, from Phantasy Star to Dragon Quest.  Why in Dragon Quest III alone, way back in 1989, you could even change their mood, which would alter their stats while leveling.

If you haven't figured it out, Dragon Quest has a very WRPG styled engine.  Which did tons of things you keep praising WRPGs for doing...anywhere from 15-20 years ago.  All of you who keep lumping 'all JRPGs' into these absolute statements need to do some research.

The sheer fact that Dragon Age is compared to Baldur's Gate goes to show the quality the game has.

Baldur's Gate 2 IMO is without a doubt the best WRPG... Ever.

That is all.



                            

JRPG

- while the overall storytelling is somewhat less interactive, the delivery is more consistent, in most cases with excelent cinematography, state of the art motion capture and generally well placed humour.



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What I see in the original post partly comes out of the focus of JRPGs vs WRPGs:

* In JRPGs, you have a detailed and forced narrative the game designer wants you to go through.  There is focus on preset characters with set backgrounds, and a plot that needs to unfold.  Side quests provide a way to level up so you can get to the ending.  Because of this approach, it is possible the main story arch isn't going to be completely revealed.  It will eventually be reached, because the forced narrative will get you there.

* WRPGs, on the other hand, are all about choices players make, and the characters are who the players decide they will be.  In short, it is YOU who the game is about, not some other character you are following.  A game is likely to give the player multiple possible endings.  The game world functions much more as a sandbox than the JRPG world.  To prevent players from getting completely lost, the game will put some long-term goals for the player to accomplish and lay out more of where they need to go.  The basic state of the world is laid out also, to give players an overarching focus, so they stay on task, and get to the ending.  This is needed, because there isn't a forced narrative placed over the game.



Both tend to be linear I think, however JRPGs use (surprise) more Japanese and Asian methods of revealing character, more overt use of symbolism and metaphor, while WRPGs use Western movie methods for the most part (and often badly truth be told)- although there is an increasing trend to try and adopt emergent story-telling - which I've found wanting for the most part as it mostly means - act good and get these specific quests and result, act bad and get these specific quests and results.



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Reasonable said:
Both tend to be linear I think, however JRPGs use (surprise) more Japanese and Asian methods of revealing character, more overt use of symbolism and metaphor, while WRPGs use Western movie methods for the most part (and often badly truth be told)- although there is an increasing trend to try and adopt emergent story-telling - which I've found wanting for the most part as it mostly means - act good and get these specific quests and result, act bad and get these specific quests and results.

Western movie methods?  

 

I do appreciate that Dragon Age doesn't go for that whole good vs evil thing with the choices.  That means that every choice has both benefits and detriments.



vlad321 said:

Actually that's false. If you take The Witcher, choices you make early in the game can alter the story later on, depending on who you help, kill, fuck, or fuck over.

Dragon Age recetly does the same.

Even if there is jus an illusion it's still a big difference, since I don't have even that illusion in books. Meanwhile JRPGs offer NOTHING when compared to books when it comes to the story. Also, no video game can compete with books when it comes to storytelling, so that makes linear storylines pretty bad. Cinematic games are the WORST games in existance (MGS4 is a great example of a good game gone to shit).

I have been tempted to try The Witcher, so this might push me over the edge. I never cared for Baulder's Gate though, so I know better than to try Dragon Age. The game won't be as good, and will share a lot of the problems I had.

The illusion of choice is absolutely meaningless though. I don't play these games for the shitty side-quest stories. Hell, I rarely even pay attention to them. Few, if any, are even given enough attention to be considered well written, or worthwhile outside of the in-game rewards. I don't need to feel like I could control a story. This is meaningless to me. I just want some epic battles, some ridiculous challenges, and possibly some nice character development. The linearity of the story line is meaningless in the end because there is no real alternative.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Gnizmo said:
vlad321 said:

Actually that's false. If you take The Witcher, choices you make early in the game can alter the story later on, depending on who you help, kill, fuck, or fuck over.

Dragon Age recetly does the same.

Even if there is jus an illusion it's still a big difference, since I don't have even that illusion in books. Meanwhile JRPGs offer NOTHING when compared to books when it comes to the story. Also, no video game can compete with books when it comes to storytelling, so that makes linear storylines pretty bad. Cinematic games are the WORST games in existance (MGS4 is a great example of a good game gone to shit).

I have been tempted to try The Witcher, so this might push me over the edge. I never cared for Baulder's Gate though, so I know better than to try Dragon Age. The game won't be as good, and will share a lot of the problems I had.

The illusion of choice is absolutely meaningless though. I don't play these games for the shitty side-quest stories. Hell, I rarely even pay attention to them. Few, if any, are even given enough attention to be considered well written, or worthwhile outside of the in-game rewards. I don't need to feel like I could control a story. This is meaningless to me. I just want some epic battles, some ridiculous challenges, and possibly some nice character development. The linearity of the story line is meaningless in the end because there is no real alternative.

It sounds like you wouldn't enjoy Dragon Age, but it is a well-written story with interesting choices that do add an different element to the game play, on top of epic battles etc.

The following might be a spoiler to anyone who would end up playing the game

For example, let's say you play the linear story and kill an enemy. In another play through you could find out through side quests, different choices and talking to companions that the enemy is actually good and they become an ally. Also, depending on your choices a companion could attack you. Dragon Age does that.



Mr Khan said:

I think the key difference is that WRPGs give the protagonist control, more control over story outcomes, more control over how they look, more control over what kind of fighting force they become. In JRPGs, the protagonist is an individual with their own lives, their own skills, and they grow into who they are, not who you necessarily want them to be.

 

Like in Tales, the JRPG i'm currently slogging through. Lloyd is a fighter who wields two swords with a degree of technical prowess, aside from choosing whether he learns S type techniques or T type techniques, i have no control over what he's going to grow into, he's going to grow into a stronger swordsman. I can't make him an archer or a mage or whatever.

I think Mr Khan here nailed it in his first paragraph IMO. I tend to prefer JRPGs bcause having too many choices can get pretty overwhelming IMO. For instance, if you walked into a store to buy toothpaste and there was only one brand on the shelf, you'd be in and out of the store in a second. However, if you walked in and saw 20 different brands without having any preference prior to your arival, you'll probably spend at least 30 mins just to pick the right toothpaste brand.



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Gnizmo said:
vlad321 said:
JRPGs are extremely linear. I'd rather read a good book.
WRPGs offer choices and focus on gameplay, something a book can't do.

WRPGs give the illusion of choice. In the end you get the same linear story 99% of the time though, with a bunch of side-quests. Maybe I just played the wrong ones, but every time I try one I get the same main story regardless of the "choices" I make plus or minus a few worthless dialogue changes. The story plays out ultimately in the exact same fashion regardless of which worthless side quests you have done. I would kill for a game that offered true choices and actually had a dynamic story.

Most WRPG, you are right. They give an illusion of choice. There are however some RPG that don't do that. Fallout 1 & 2 for example make you the player the star. The ending is up to player. Fallout 3 as an example you are right. FO3 is mostly a massive series of side quests with the main quest being pretty darn linear. It's 9 possible endings are pretty miniscule in difference.


Though some times I like to play games and sometime I like to read books. Different tastes for different times.



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