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Dv8thwonder said:
theRepublic said:
(second to last article)

Malstrom makes a good point about Nintendo needing to make games that make more use of the Wii's unique features (motion control, IR pointer), and that those games should have probably came in late 2008.

However, he has to ruin it by going and talking about the UGC thing again. He continues to have zero proof outside of Wii Music. It's like he thinks if he keeps saying it, it will come true.

I believe it's not fair to customers to bring out one innovation (Vitality Sensor) w/o supporting the last to it's full potential. I think he brought up Wii Music, Animal Crossing and UGC to further his point and present it as a cautionary tale to Nintendo and it's fans. At least I hope that's what he's trying to convey.

I think it is ok to bring out new stuff as long as you support the old at the same time.  It is very debatable whether or not Nintendo has done this though.

About the Wii version of AC, if it is as much like the DS version as I keep hearing, that game is not about UGC at all.



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theRepublic said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Okay, then if not Wii Music and AC for UGC, then those games for not enough content.

I'm not disputing that Wii Music is mostly about UGC.  I'm saying that it is pretty much the only evidence Malstom has other than some DSiWare games to paint a picture of Nintendo turning in an entirely new direction internally.  I believe that this is vastly over-reaching based on the available evidence.

The sudden gap in major games could be because they were going off the expectation those two would take off. It is a possible explanation. Not going to claim it's anything more than supposition though.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

LordTheNightKnight said:
theRepublic said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Okay, then if not Wii Music and AC for UGC, then those games for not enough content.

I'm not disputing that Wii Music is mostly about UGC.  I'm saying that it is pretty much the only evidence Malstom has other than some DSiWare games to paint a picture of Nintendo turning in an entirely new direction internally.  I believe that this is vastly over-reaching based on the available evidence.

The sudden gap in major games could be because they were going off the expectation those two would take off. It is a possible explanation. Not going to claim it's anything more than supposition though.

That's possible, but I think it is unlikely.  Especially since Nintendo is on a just barely slower pace than they were on the GC and N64 generations, and a faster pace than the SNES generation.



Switch Code: SW-7377-9189-3397 -- Nintendo Network ID: theRepublic -- Steam ID: theRepublic

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Email: About MH3 and Zelda Wii

this is what was written in the Official Nintendo Magazine, January edition
this is what Eiji Auonuma said in an interview:

*MotionPlus has been incorporated into the game, and Link is “already reproducing almost perfectly what you do with the remote and MotionPlus. Our team has already got a solid response from this aspect of the software.”
*The structure of the game has been changed significantly from previous games, and Aonuma hopes that people will be surprised with the changes.
*The game has been well under development for some time now, and Aonuma is hopeful that they will be able to show something at E3 2010.
*MotionPlus was not even conceived when development started on the game, so they had to experiment with the idea of such inclusion part-way through development.
*Most bizarre of all, Aonuma mentions that a definite graphical style for the game has not yet been decided. Aonuma says that it’s possible that they may even go for something completely new, but hints that it will likely be on the realism side of the spectrum (as opposed to cel-shading).
*Aonuma has been reading speculation on the internet and says that some of it is correct, but cannot elaborate on it until next year.
*Aonuma has been playing Monster Hunter Tri in order to see what aspects most appeal to the audience

please pay attention to the last point

it was already stated earlier that the Zelda team was looking at MH3 as an obstacle to surpass, since it looked so graphically stunning.
now it seems that the Zelda team is also comparing Zelda to MH3, so I hope Zelda Wii will be amazing, in comparison to NSMBWii

heh, greets maelstrom
love your site

P.S: I’m a huge Zelda fan myself and got tired of the same items only being used in dungeons and adding not further dimension to the actual combat
as well as the dull overworld in TP

I love OoT because it had a perfect mix of puzzeles as well as action within the dungeons, and battles got easier with the new items you found.
This is not the case in newer zelda games, fights revolve only around your sword and shield and items are only for use in dungeons.
I really hope this will make me love a newer Zelda.

I played OoT as my first Zelda, and I played AlttP after that. and I love both alot, but never liked MM, WW and TP wasn’t what I thought it would be

Aonuma says many different things. As Nintendo used to say, “Playing is Believing.” As for now, I have no intentions on purchasing Zelda Wii.

The design of modern Zelda matches that of the Lolo series than what Zelda used to be (an action game with RPG elements). How will Zelda Wii be with motion plus? Imagine a Lolo game with motion plus. Or if you do not remember Lolo, imagine Zack and Wiki and you get the basic idea. Sure, there will be sword fighting. But it will only be swordfighting to the purpose of solving a puzzle.

Look at this snippet of a video from Zelda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLln8g8K1xQ&feature=player_embedded

Does that video have more in common with this…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zj0cMyTn7I&feature=player_embedded

Or with this…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwq_BQtiMdI&feature=player_embedded

There is no reason for Lolo to make a return. Lolo has become Zelda. Lolo, like Link, enters evil dungeons and castles all to save the princess called Lala. Modern Zelda and Lolo have much in common. But old school Zelda? They have little in common aside from the same characters.

Many customers complained that NSMB DS was “too easy”. Customer response should never be taken literally. There were some levels in NSMB DS, especially in the ‘locked’ worlds, that are very frustrating. What the customers were really saying was that NSMB DS was not a satisfying game. Making the game as difficult as Lost Levels wouldn’t suddenly make the game satisfying.

With Mario 5, I was satisfied by it, and I have not been satisfied by games in a long time. Other consumer responses appear to be very positive where they were not that positive about NSMB DS. It wasn’t ‘difficulty’ so much as ‘unsatisfying level design’ that appeared to be the problem.

People are currently saying that Zelda is “too easy”. I do not think this should be taken literally. Like NSMB DS, I think consumers are really saying “unsatisfying”. So the question is how to make Zelda more satisfying? Why were older Zelda games satisfying where these newer ones aren’t cutting it? I think the action has been so diluted as to become almost non-existent. Zelda was originally marketed as an arcade action game with RPG elements. The arcade action has been diluted into puzzle scenarios and the RPG elements have been diluted into “story” and “cutscenes”.

You can’t take what customers say literally. Customers only feel. They do not articulate clearly what they think. You can only trust the behavior of customers, never what they say.

When customers say, “Zelda is too easy,” Aonuma responded by “We will make harder puzzles.” This is not at all what people meant.

When customers say, “Zelda feels tired. It feels so formulaic.” Aonuma responded by saying, “We will change the formula by removing the overworld and how the dungeons are done.” The last thing customers want is the total removal of the overworld. There are many Zelda fans who play Zelda games for the overworld itself. I think this is a big reason why there are so many complaints about the train in Spirit Tracks. Aside from the train being ridiculous, the overworld just sucks in Spirit Tracks.

Some people have been angry that I have said I’d rather Zelda get more action and combat back into it. They say it like I want to totally change what Zelda is. But those things were central parts of older Zeldas. I don’t see how there is any way Zelda can expand to those older fans without something more action orientated. And with motion plus, this is a huge opportunity for Zelda to use some cool sword fighting and arrow shooting. The problem with most 3d games is that the controls were in 2d including the analog controls. But with motion controls, controls are now in 3d. Zelda can now fully realize combat in 3d as it now has the controls to match.

Despite what Aonuma says, despite what is shown at E3 2010, I have no faith such a Zelda Wii will be pulled off. The motion controls will be injected into the existing Lolo Zelda formula. Where the original Zeldas were literally designed around arcade combat, Zelda Wii needs to be designed around motion plus combat. This would be a very big change, and it is something Nintendo won’t risk.

I’m noticing that game developers in general tend to go off the reservation when left to their own creative impulses. They think their job is to be creative. It isn’t. Their job is to make games that sell. Often creativity does help in that but only when it is grounded.

Zelda team seems notorious for trying to do whatever they want. They put out Wind Waker’s visuals and the market said, “If you make games like this, we won’t buy it.” So, instead, they put the art style into the handheld games. I believe the handheld games would be better received without the Wind Waker art style, but it appears the Zelda team is out to entertain themselves.

Puzzles are the easiest type of work for a game developer I can imagine. Puzzles are easy to make and easy to test. There is only one way to solve the puzzles after all. This is why puzzle games dominate iphone, flash games, and homebrew. The Zelda team drifts towards puzzles not because of any belief that they are what incorporates Zelda but because they are easy to implement.

All that I know is that great games require developers to work hard. This is why great games are rare. Human nature asserts itself and, like any other employee, a developer is going to go the path of least resistance if left to his own impulses. This might be a reason why independent developers don’t “break out” with their ‘game of genius’.

Zelda team has no business placing a train into the game. But it was done not because of any philosophy behind Zelda but solely because Aonuma wants to please his son. They should just put the picture of Aonuma’s son as the cover of the Zelda game for that is who the game is truly intended for.

Pesky things like a rich overworld requires hard work on the developers. So it is no surprise to me that as soon as they hear customers say, “I am tired of the formula,” they respond with, “Let’s remove the overworld entirely!” How amazing it is that all these interpretations of what the customers want always result in less work for the Zelda team to do!

But what bothers me most about Zelda is this unstated belief that there will always be another game in the series and that Zelda should focus on differentiating itself from other Zeldas.

No game series is immortal. Many that were thought to be immortal have been run into the ground. Every game should be made with the belief that it might be the last one. One day, it will be the last game. And no one will know it at the time.

“Let’s put walruses and chipmunks in the next Zelda!” “Wow, we are so creative!” “Boy, this is totally unlike any other Zelda game before!” We end up with Zelda games that are quirky but don’t feel like masterpieces. Zelda-with-wolf, Zelda-with-three-day-cycle, Zelda-with-boat, Zelda-with-train, and now Zelda-with-motion-controls.

I know the first Zelda was made in the belief that there was not going to be a sequel. They had no idea how the first Zelda would be received. So they considered it the last Zelda. They even included a second quest. With Zelda 2, it also appeared they thought it would be the last Zelda game. And the same can be seen with Link to the Past and even Ocarina of Time.

It appears Zelda has been a victim of Ocarina’s success. Or maybe it is a problem having a team of developers dedicated to doing nothing but making Zelda. It breeds the habit of them wanting to differentiate each game with kooky stuff. But do the customers want that? If customers want something different, they play a different game. When they buy Zelda, they come with certain expectations like exploring an epic overworld, like getting cool new weapons to defeat one’s enemies, and generally adventuring around.

It is human nature to believe that what you are working on will have a guaranteed sequel, you won’t too much with your project. After all, you are thinking about the next project. If you notice about politicians that their best speeches are their last speeches of their careers. It is the same principle. Ever since there has been this belief there will always be another Zelda, Zelda games have become average games.

Zelda games should be made under the belief that this will be the last Zelda game ever made. Because one day, this will become true.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

No game series is immortal. Many that were thought to be immortal have been run into the ground. Every game should be made with the belief that it might be the last one. One day, it will be the last game. And no one will know it at the time.

I like that idea.

It appears Zelda has been a victim of Ocarina’s success. Or maybe it is a problem having a team of developers dedicated to doing nothing but making Zelda. It breeds the habit of them wanting to differentiate each game with kooky stuff. But do the customers want that? If customers want something different, they play a different game. When they buy Zelda, they come with certain expectations like exploring an epic overworld, like getting cool new weapons to defeat one’s enemies, and generally adventuring around.

It is human nature to believe that what you are working on will have a guaranteed sequel, you won’t too much with your project. After all, you are thinking about the next project. If you notice about politicians that their best speeches are their last speeches of their careers. It is the same principle. Ever since there has been this belief there will always be another Zelda, Zelda games have become average games.

Another interesting point.  Perhaps It would be better to always rotate teams to something new.  Then again, keeping the same team allows them to perfect what they do.  The occasional infusion of fresh blood into the team would probably be a good idea.

By the way, I still think "Zelda-with-three-day-cycle" is the best game ever made.



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3DS - Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (Trilogy) (2005/2014)
Wii U - Darksiders: Warmastered Edition (2010/2017)
Mobile - The Simpson's Tapped Out and Yugioh Duel Links
PC - Deep Rock Galactic (2020)

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But what bothers me most about Zelda is this unstated belief that there will always be another game in the series and that Zelda should focus on differentiating itself from other Zeldas.

No game series is immortal. Many that were thought to be immortal have been run into the ground. Every game should be made with the belief that it might be the last one. One day, it will be the last game. And no one will know it at the time.

“Let’s put walruses and chipmunks in the next Zelda!” “Wow, we are so creative!” “Boy, this is totally unlike any other Zelda game before!” We end up with Zelda games that are quirky but don’t feel like masterpieces. Zelda-with-wolf, Zelda-with-three-day-cycle, Zelda-with-boat, Zelda-with-train, and now Zelda-with-motion-controls.

I know the first Zelda was made in the belief that there was not going to be a sequel. They had no idea how the first Zelda would be received. So they considered it the last Zelda. They even included a second quest. With Zelda 2, it also appeared they thought it would be the last Zelda game. And the same can be seen with Link to the Past and even Ocarina of Time.

It appears Zelda has been a victim of Ocarina’s success. Or maybe it is a problem having a team of developers dedicated to doing nothing but making Zelda. It breeds the habit of them wanting to differentiate each game with kooky stuff. But do the customers want that? If customers want something different, they play a different game. When they buy Zelda, they come with certain expectations like exploring an epic overworld, like getting cool new weapons to defeat one’s enemies, and generally adventuring around.

Wasn't Ocarina of time "Zelda-with-horse"? And yet, I don't see Malstrom criticizing that game too much. Hell, the use of horseback is a FAR more integral part of gameplay in Twilight Princess than it is in Ocarina of Time, but he's focusing on the wolf parts of the game instead.

 

Furthermore, the charge he's making that Aonuma made Spirit Tracks just for his 8 year old son is a VERY serious charge that he better have some evidence to support. The only thing I've seen so far that comes even close to this ridiculous accusation is this:

 

http://community.videogamer.com/forums/general_gaming/the_guardian_interviews_eiji_aonuma/

 

And even in that interview, he doesn't say or even give off the impression of: "Spirit tracks is focused around trains because my son wanted that".

 

I am normally a fan of Malstrom's articles. But there are too many holes in his argument in regards to what he sees as "gimmicky" additions to the Zelda franchise, and his charge against Aonuma is ridiculously off base.



Malstrom's message was new and exciting at the beginning, nobody else was bringing business theory into the console debate, but now he's getting a little weird, like the Glenn Beck of Wii fans.  I'd prefer if he stayed more academic.



PC + Wii owners unite.  Our last-gen dying platforms have access to nearly every 90+ rated game this gen.  Building a PC that visually outperforms PS360 is cheap and easy.    Oct 7th 2010 predictions (made Dec 17th '08)
PC: 10^9
Wii: 10^8

frybread said:

Malstrom's message was new and exciting at the beginning, nobody else was bringing business theory into the console debate, but now he's getting a little weird, like the Glenn Beck of Wii fans.  I'd prefer if he stayed more academic.

1. He's not that over the top. Trust me.

2. Not sure if I stated it on this thread, but as long as there are voices decrying the Wii that are just as nuts (IGN, Zero Punctuation, Pachter), we need someone to give a counter voice, at least until enough of us see how stupid it is and start giving attention to more sensible game discussion.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Actually I agree With Malstrom on many points.

-... I actually am more hyped for Monter Hunter 3 than Zelda Wii



theRepublic said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Okay, then if not Wii Music and AC for UGC, then those games for not enough content.

I'm not disputing that Wii Music is mostly about UGC.  I'm saying that it is pretty much the only evidence Malstom has other than some DSiWare games to paint a picture of Nintendo turning in an entirely new direction internally.  I believe that this is vastly over-reaching based on the available evidence.


I was in the same boat as you thinking Malstrom had an interesting theory but poor evidence until he posted this article:  There was too a User Generated Content Direction, which in turn references this article: User-generated content the future of video games says Fils-Aime. Some choice quotes from the second article:

“If you’re in the entertainment business, any kind of entertainment, this is the game changer because no longer is entertainment a one way street of content created for audiences that just sit back and absorb it,” Fils-Aime said. “The era of passive entertainment is waning, active entertainment is where the action is.”

He went on to underline Nintendo's past and future focus on user-generated content, going as far to quote, Nintendo president, Satoru Iwata, saying: "We believe that building a foundations where players' creativity is harnessed and the results are shared is becoming increasingly important."

Although it has little to do with disruption, I think Malstrom should have put together a full-length article on UGC to support all of his blog entries as his best work often relies on quotes.  (Not to mention he seems to consider this the most important "move" Nintendo has made in the past year or so).