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Forums - General - Large Hadron Collider produces first results

I'm beginning to be convinced by these replies. But I'm still somewhat a skeptic until we see something tangible which proves that the LHC isn't an expensive, energy guzzling, glorified toaster.



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Kantor said:
I'm beginning to be convinced by these replies. But I'm still somewhat a skeptic until we see something tangible which proves that the LHC isn't an expensive, energy guzzling, glorified toaster.

If you want something tangible then you may have to wait a few years I'm afraid. But it should come, it may not seem like it will lead to much now, but we should eventually start being able to exploit the results for new technological and scientific gains.



Kantor said:
tombi123 said:
Kantor said:
So have they actually LEARNED anything yet?

I don't really see the point of the LHC. Billions of euros for an enormous machine that will prove something which scientists already think is true, which will have no impact on humanity. Then, in a few years, they'll scrap it and build a new one.

CERN is much more than just the LHC. The point of the LHC isn't to prove that the Higgs-Boson particle exists, its point is to find out if the Higgs-Boson exists. If the LHC produces an HB, physicists will be able to measure its mass. If the LHC doesn't find an HB then we might have to rethink The Standard Model of Particle Physics. 

100 years ago you probably would have said that The Theory of General Relativity would have no impact on humanity. Without General Relativity humans would have no satellite communication technology. Meaning no internet, no way of predicting the weather accurately, no GPS etc. 

Also the costs of the LHC pale in comparison to the amount of money spent on bailing out the banks. A deeper understanding of the Universe which will almost certainly lead to scientific and technological breakthroughs is worth so much more to humanity than bailing out some careless banks.

So, they think the Higgs-Boson exists, but they're not sure. So, they want to test it.

What would measuring the mass of a Higgs-Boson achieve? Would that allow us to create matter, or something? If it did, that would be amazing...and also pretty freaky.

I suppose you're right about General Relativity, but I won't accept that the LHC is going to benefit the large majority of humanity until I see its effects. I think money would be better spent on medicine, nanotechnology, things which would help the general public and not, most probably, lie in an archive somewhere.

The Standard Model Theory predicts that the Higgs exists (and what mass it should have). 

A breakthrough in Physics always leads to a breakthrough in other areas of science (chemistry, biology, medicine etc). This is because all other sciences are just applied physics.  

If we had stopped funding physics completely in the 18th century and just funded medicine we probably wouldn't have discovered electricity yet (we certainly wouldn't be able to manipulate electricity like we can today), and how would medicine be doing without electrical equipment.



tombi123 said:
Kantor said:
tombi123 said:
Kantor said:
So have they actually LEARNED anything yet?

I don't really see the point of the LHC. Billions of euros for an enormous machine that will prove something which scientists already think is true, which will have no impact on humanity. Then, in a few years, they'll scrap it and build a new one.

CERN is much more than just the LHC. The point of the LHC isn't to prove that the Higgs-Boson particle exists, its point is to find out if the Higgs-Boson exists. If the LHC produces an HB, physicists will be able to measure its mass. If the LHC doesn't find an HB then we might have to rethink The Standard Model of Particle Physics. 

100 years ago you probably would have said that The Theory of General Relativity would have no impact on humanity. Without General Relativity humans would have no satellite communication technology. Meaning no internet, no way of predicting the weather accurately, no GPS etc. 

Also the costs of the LHC pale in comparison to the amount of money spent on bailing out the banks. A deeper understanding of the Universe which will almost certainly lead to scientific and technological breakthroughs is worth so much more to humanity than bailing out some careless banks.

So, they think the Higgs-Boson exists, but they're not sure. So, they want to test it.

What would measuring the mass of a Higgs-Boson achieve? Would that allow us to create matter, or something? If it did, that would be amazing...and also pretty freaky.

I suppose you're right about General Relativity, but I won't accept that the LHC is going to benefit the large majority of humanity until I see its effects. I think money would be better spent on medicine, nanotechnology, things which would help the general public and not, most probably, lie in an archive somewhere.

The Standard Model Theory predicts that the Higgs exists (and what mass it should have). 

A breakthrough in Physics always leads to a breakthrough in other areas of science (chemistry, biology, medicine etc). This is because all other sciences are just applied physics.  

If we had stopped funding physics completely in the 18th century and just funded medicine we probably wouldn't have discovered electricity yet (we certainly wouldn't be able to manipulate electricity like we can today), and how would medicine be doing without electrical equipment.

When it comes to science:

Physics > Everything else



it is true that this things can create black holes.



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xbebop said:

When it comes to science:

Physics Mathematics > Everything else

Fixed.

Mathematics is the grand daddy of all the sciences, and it's also the only truly exact science.

 



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finalrpgfantasy said:
it is true that this things can create black holes.

From what I heard it can only create black holes which are much smaller than an hydrogen atom. This black hole could go through anything without you even noticing.

 



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finalrpgfantasy said:
it is true that this things can create black holes.

Micro black holes. The odds are millions to one against, and no black hole created by the LHC would be stable.



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I'll post what I said in a similar thread, about the importance of the LHC's work:

--

The Higgs boson is the last well-founded, well-understood part of theoretical physics we haven't yet observed evidence for. Once we find it, the standard model of particle physics will be completed.That consists of the unified theories of three of the four fundamental forces (strong, weak, electromagnetic). Then we can focus on bringing the fourth force (gravity) into the model, since we know that at high energies all four forces are aspects of a single force. We have yet to formulate a quantum theory of gravity so we can bring it into the model properly.

If we don't find the Higgs boson, the standard model needs a rethink and we need to find some other reason why particles have mass then find evidence for that. Then we can get on with the quantum theory of gravity like before.

Once we have a complete, single description of the fundamental forces, new practical discoveries will fall out of it like happened with Newton's laws, Einstein's relativity, Maxwell's equations formalising electricity, and quantum mechanics itself. Though none had immediate applications, without them we couldn't have developed modern technology [for example, the transistor]. I am certain a unified theory would provide similar breakthroughs.

--

There is no risk of the LHC doing anything dangerous. The reason we are entertaining the possibility is that scientists are reluctant to say anything has zero probability since, due to quantum mechanical uncertainty, ANYTHING could, but the chance is so small it shouldn't even get a mention in any coverage of it.

Bottom line: the LHC will have practical uses for its discoveries. Just not soon, and not obviously. And a negative result is just as valuable as a positive, though we do expect to see some new and interesting things once we reach higher energies.



NJ5 said:
finalrpgfantasy said:
it is true that this things can create black holes.

From what I heard it can only create black holes which are much smaller than an hydrogen atom. This black hole could go through anything without you even noticing.

 

The black hole would be so small that it would take centuries for it to swallow up the Earth(maybe millenia, I forgot), and that's IF it's stable. However, any black hole created there would be created and die within the blink of an eye.