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Forums - PC - 2 things that will keep pc gaming alive for many more years

vlad321 said:
NiKKoM said:
Shio..

Shio will single handly keep pc gaming alive.. even if that means he has to buy Star Craft 2 10 million times.. he will do it..

I'd buy SC2 10 million imes too if each one was a brand new SC2 experience.

Well, too bad that's only going to work for the first 3 times...



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As far as Dragon Age I don't think it was by accident that the console version tactics were more dumb down than the PC version. Most console gamers will play the game one time though then trade it in while a PC gamer wants a more deeper game play to continue playing Dragon Age for months to come especially with mods.



shio said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
STEKSTAV said:
RPGs and Strategy i can agree with though. Theres basicly no Strategy games on consoles, Halo Wars maybe the only title that works okay. And as for RPGs, Consoles controls are often the main issue here. RPGs on PCs plays better in 8/10 games.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age being the recent ones that had an enhanced experience when the controls were in order.

Adventure though? Nah. Uncharted and the PS3 basicly has monopoly on that one.

The RPG market is 100x bigger on consoles simply because of Japan.  You also need to count handhelds in that since the DS is pretty much making 90% of all RPGs now.  But even if you don't count handhelds, the console market still has way more.  Ever since the mid-90s, that's always been the problem, consoles have had more content.  It wasn't always better than stuff coming out on PCs, but there was more of it.  It was in the late 90s that PCs started to decline in quality (mostly only a few good games a year) and consoles really took over.

Its not about your perception of how an RPG (or any other genre) plays.  Its about how the games sell.  Even RPGs made for PCs primarily like Fallout 3 sell better on consoles.

Also, there are strategy games on consoles.  Many of the first strategy games, such as Advance Wars/Fire Emblem and Romance of the Three Kingdoms, were on consoles.  And their series are still ongoing, with many MANY others appearing all the time, both small-time turn based strategy games based in Japan such as Utawarerumono or big time games such as Disgaea and the various Mysterious Dungeon spin-offs.  Whereas some of the PC strategy series are dying, such as Age of Empires.

The genres PCs control is FPS, MMO and Simulation.  But even then, consoles are picking away at those markets.

You have said so many wrong things I don't even.... first, there are literally HUNDREDS of RPGs coming out on PC every year, HUNDREDS!

Second, we are strictly talking about PC vs Consoles (domestic consoles). Handhelds are a different beast and doesn't come into equation. If you want to pit it with something, go do a Handhelds vs Mobilbe phones, which makes more sense.

Third, MMO is NOT a genre!! MMO is the technology! There are MMOFPS, MMOAdvs and, you guessed it, MMORPGs, which is are from the RPG GENRE! All MMORPGs are RPGs.

Fourth, PC has by far the greatest lineup of RPGs. And in recent times it has become even more evident. Let's compare the best RPGs of 2008 between platforms:

PC:
WoW: Wrath of the Lich King
Fallout 3
King's Bounty: The Legend
Mass Effect
LoTR Online: Mines of Moria
Warhammer Online
The Witcher Enhanced Edition
Mount & Blade
Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir
Sacred 2
Atlantica Online
Everquest 2: The Shadow Odissey
Pirates of the Burning Sea

Xbox 360:
Fallout 3
Fable 2
Tales of Vesperia
Lost Odissey

PS3:
Fallout 3
Valkyria Chronicles
Eternal Sonata

Wii:
Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo Dungeon
Monster Lab
Tales of Symphonia: DotNW

 

PC has freaking more good RPGs released in 2008 than all consoles combined. Hell just look at it:
Best 2008 RPG: Fallout 3 (I don't personally agree, but most seem to believe this)
Best 2008 MMORPG: Warhammer Online
Best 2008 RPG expansion: Wrath of the Lich King
Best SRPG: King's Bounty (even won a few GOTY awards)
Best Combat: Mount & Blade (so true, by far the most refreshing combat in years)

PC also got an improved version of Mass Effect, an improved version of The Witcher (2007 RPGOTY), a great F2P MMORPG in Atlantica Online, and a decent ARPG in Sacred 2.

Again, like Stekstav, you are confusing 'good' with 'more games'.  And your perception of good.  Secondly, you are limiting your perception to just games released in America and under one year.  Sure, I can say PC did better than consoles in one genre in one year as well.  But over the grand scheme of things, consoles are releasing WAY more games in most genres than PC.  Lastly, more awards don't always equal more sales.  I'm talking about SALES.  Not how GOOD you perceive a game to be.  And again, that hits on your limiting your view to just games released in America under one specific time frame yadda yadda.

Heck, multiple of the games you put under PC are also on the 360 (more than just Fallout 3) and many RPGs on the 360 are soon to be on the PS3, etc. etc.  Not to mention all the RPGs for Wii never released here or soon to be released like Arc Rise Fantasia, Monando, Fragile, Tales of Graces, etc.

One compounding bit of evidence you could say that makes the PC have more RPGs than consoles however is the literally thousands of small studio and independently made RPGs on PC.  Much of these are, once again, made in Japan and are either Anime or Hentai based and some making their way to handhelds.  But its up to you if you are going to count those.

Also, MMOs are considered a genre now.  I have no idea what this 'technology' nonsense is.  That's like saying 'Strategy' is a technology because it can be attributed to multiple sub-genres like tactical and real time.  MMO is a genre with multiple sub-genres.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

If people, like me and million others, can change their FPS from "keyboard & mouse" to "controller" im sure it can be done for MMO and RTS.



V-r0cK said:
If people, like me and million others, can change their FPS from "keyboard & mouse" to "controller" im sure it can be done for MMO and RTS.

The best MMO I have played to date is Phantasy Star Online, and it used a controller, on a console, back in 2001. (though hopefully Star Wars: The Old Republic will totally blow it away).

True, I prefer playing many games on PC, specifically flight sim games, simulation games and even MMOs most of the time.  But you go where the good games are.  Not just sit with your hands folded staring at one gaming device and saying 'this is the only good one, only games made for this are good'.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

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Kenryoku_Maxis said:
STEKSTAV said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
STEKSTAV said:
RPGs and Strategy i can agree with though. Theres basicly no Strategy games on consoles, Halo Wars maybe the only title that works okay. And as for RPGs, Consoles controls are often the main issue here. RPGs on PCs plays better in 8/10 games.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age being the recent ones that had an enhanced experience when the controls were in order.

Adventure though? Nah. Uncharted and the PS3 basicly has monopoly on that one.

The RPG market is 100x bigger on consoles simply because of Japan.  You also need to count handhelds in that since the DS is pretty much making 90% of all RPGs now.  But even if you don't count handhelds, the console market still has way more.  Ever since the mid-90s, that's always been the problem, consoles have had more content.  It wasn't always better than stuff coming out on PCs, but there was more of it.  It was in the late 90s that PCs started to decline in quality (mostly only a few good games a year) and consoles really took over.

Its not about your perception of how an RPG (or any other genre) plays.  Its about how the games sell.  Even RPGs made for PCs primarily like Fallout 3 sell better on consoles.

Also, there are strategy games on consoles.  Many of the first strategy games, such as Advance Wars/Fire Emblem and Romance of the Three Kingdoms, were on consoles.  And their series are still ongoing, with many MANY others appearing all the time, both small-time turn based strategy games based in Japan such as Utawarerumono or big time games such as Disgaea and the various Mysterious Dungeon spin-offs.  Whereas some of the PC strategy series are dying, such as Age of Empires.

The genres PCs control is FPS, MMO and Simulation.  But even then, consoles are picking away at those markets.

I disagree. Like i said.. ME and DA are the recent installments that shows why RPGs are better on PCs. Dragon Age even got smacked around abit because you could clearly tell it was a PC game first, and console game second. And since im not counting DS, the 90% RPGs only released in Japan does little to affect my point of view. And imo its not about how the game sells, its Gameplay vs Gameplay. You said so yourself. You said that PC has FPS, MMOs an Simulations, for what reason? Not because they sell better on PCs vs Consoles, but because they have better gameplay, and controls being on of the key points, i.e RPGs plays better on PCs due to the share number of keys available.

That however dosen't make the console version unplayable or not worthy of a purchase, but for an enhanced experience to enjoy the game without "restrictions", PC would be the main platform.

And as for Stratagy.. i disagree. Consoles have nothing on PCs when it comes to Strategy games. Even if they are on consoles, and even if consoles have games only released on Consoles. They PC still ranks superior when it comes to share numbers of games, aswell as how they play out.

You're talking about your personal opinion of why you think certain genres of games play better on PCs (mostly all of them apparently).  This thread, and the original points brought up, were that PC dominated certain genres and only needed those genres to survive.  Neither is true, as console games are heavily invested in those genres and many of those genres, console games sell way better than PC (such as RPGs).

Your personal opinion on PCs being 'superior' aside, you need to look at the big picture.  Just because you like games on PC doesn't mean they are selling well or better on PC.  Because they aren't.

Question 1: The OP claimed that two genres would keep the PC alive.. two game genres that is hard for developers to make decent on Consoles, right? Why? Because they wouldn't sell well, or because they wouldn't play well?

Question 2: Why do you feel that PC control the the FPS genre? Why? Because they sell well, or because they play well?

The OP claimed that two generes plays better on PCs than consoles and such the PC will stay alive due to consoles inability to recreate a decent game within those genres. 

Question 3: So by now you've most likely written "Because they play better". So if the PC have more RPGs (MMORPGs alike), and controls that plays better within that genre. How come consoles have the upper hand?

Im not saying that Console RPGs like Fable etc would play better on PCs, or that the difference between PC RPGs and Console RPGs are as big as PC RTS and Console RTS. But i find it somewhat contradicting to say that something that within the RPG gener has a the bigger quantity of games aswell as quality, would be "inferior" to something that is second in just that. Dosen't add up. Even more so when you yourself said that FPS is a PC genre when Console FPS are far bigger and closer to PCs than Console RPGs.



V-r0cK said:
If people, like me and million others, can change their FPS from "keyboard & mouse" to "controller" im sure it can be done for MMO and RTS.

I think many people are neglecting to see what makes PC gaming unique. While MMOs and RTS games are waaaaay better on PC, it has nothing to do with the platform itself, but everything to do with the improved control scheme provided by a KB and mouse. That said, why are all these publishers trying to dumb down RTS and MMO games to meet the limitations of a controller when modern gaming systems all feature USB ports that are more than capable of supporting a KB and mouse if the manufactureres decided to support them? Why can't you hook up a KB and mouse to play console FPS games if you so desire? I was sure that was something that we were going to see this gen, now I highly doubt it.

Should consoles ever start supporting KB and mouse contol, then PC gaming's future will really become uncertain imo. But until then, most hardcore MMO, RTS and yes, FPS gamers will always chose a PC as the platform of choice when a game is released with a PC option.



V-r0cK said:
If people, like me and million others, can change their FPS from "keyboard & mouse" to "controller" im sure it can be done for MMO and RTS.

Tohose millins of others gave up just too much when they gave up their KBMs. Console FPSes are just like consoles RTS when compared to their PC counterparts. Whichever way you spin it, they are just a simplified experience.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

STEKSTAV said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

You're talking about your personal opinion of why you think certain genres of games play better on PCs (mostly all of them apparently).  This thread, and the original points brought up, were that PC dominated certain genres and only needed those genres to survive.  Neither is true, as console games are heavily invested in those genres and many of those genres, console games sell way better than PC (such as RPGs).

Your personal opinion on PCs being 'superior' aside, you need to look at the big picture.  Just because you like games on PC doesn't mean they are selling well or better on PC.  Because they aren't.

Question 1: The OP claimed that two genres would keep the PC alive.. two game genres that is hard for developers to make decent on Consoles, right? Why? Because they wouldn't sell well, or because they wouldn't play well?

Question 2: Why do you feel that PC control the the FPS genre? Why? Because they sell well, or because they play well?

The OP claimed that two generes plays better on PCs than consoles and such the PC will stay alive due to consoles inability to recreate a decent game within those genres. 

Question 3: So by now you've most likely written "Because they play better". So if the PC have more RPGs (MMORPGs alike), and controls that plays better within that genre. How come consoles have the upper hand?

Im not saying that Console RPGs like Fable etc would play better on PCs, or that the difference between PC RPGs and Console RPGs are as big as PC RTS and Console RTS. But i find it somewhat contradicting to say that something that within the RPG gener has a the bigger quantity of games aswell as quality, would be "inferior" to something that is second in just that. Dosen't add up. Even more so when you yourself said that FPS is a PC genre when Console FPS are far bigger and closer to PCs than Console RPGs.

I would say I contradicted myself, but simply by saying one word wrong.  Instead of saying 'control', I should have said PC has better 'support' of FPS.  Though obviously, as you said, FPS on consoles are selling much better.  But since many of the FPS are being developed for both PC and then being put on the consoles at the same time (same game for both platforms), that's kind of the reason FPS are still more of a PC genre.  Not to mention many of the biggest FPS developers develop mostly PC games.

Also, both the genres the OP stated can and have been made on consoles well.  I don't think games like FFXI, Phantasy Star Online or Monster Hunter Tri lack anything that makes them a viable MMO.  RTS however can be debated as being better played on a PC, though there are console games which have used the setup, such as Pikmin and Little King's Story.  And put their very own spin on it.

But no matter how you slice it, whether you're looking at RPGs by their sales, 'support' or just plain number of titles released, consoles outnumber PC RPGs.  Its been that way ever since the mid 90s.  Heck, even the major innovators and game series which STARTED RPGs on PC (games like Wizardry and Ultima) moved to consoles in the mid 90s, mostly to increase their sales as the PC market is just smaller than that of the console market.  So unless you take into account those small, independantly developed PC RPGs, then console RPGs outnumber them.

Renelius said:
V-r0cK said:
If people, like me and million others, can change their FPS from "keyboard & mouse" to "controller" im sure it can be done for MMO and RTS.

I think many people are neglecting to see what makes PC gaming unique. While MMOs and RTS games are waaaaay better on PC, it has nothing to do with the platform itself, but everything to do with the improved control scheme provided by a KB and mouse. That said, why are all these publishers trying to dumb down RTS and MMO games to meet the limitations of a controller when modern gaming systems all feature USB ports that are more than capable of supporting a KB and mouse if the manufactureres decided to support them? Why can't you hook up a KB and mouse to play console FPS games if you so desire? I was sure that was something that we were going to see this gen, now I highly doubt it.

Should consoles ever start supporting KB and mouse contol, then PC gaming's future will really become uncertain imo. But until then, most hardcore MMO, RTS and yes, FPS gamers will always chose a PC as the platform of choice when a game is released with a PC option.

All the systems last gen, from XBOX to PS2 to even GC and Dreamcast (mostly for Phantasy Star Online) had a keyboard and mouse imput.  It didn't help sell specific games any and the peripherals themselves weren't utilized much.  Console gamers who play online games are playing online games for social interaction and coop play.  While PC gamers are playing the online games with more variables to think about.

In other words, less is more when designing a console game, even an RTS or MMO.  Whereas PC gamers tend to want all that extra stuff.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Garcian Smith said:
Mendicate Bias said:
Garcian Smith said:

Wrong. What keeps (and will keep) PC gaming alive is the fact that indie/art-house dev studios can release projects that would never have a chance of showing up on a console through services like Steam and D2D. Games like Torchlight, A Reckless Disregard for Gravity, The Path, Eufloria, and Machinarium would never see the light of day if they were pitched for PS360. The only thing comparable in the consoleverse is WiiWare, which introduced us to talented developers like Gaijin Games, 2D Boy, Frontier Developments, Over The Top, and Romino Games, and gave in-house devs like skip (developers of the Art Style series) the chance to really shine. The only thing that the HD Twins get in that vein is the odd PC/XBLA title like Braid (which was only barely profitable) and the once-a-year artsy PSN game from Sony.

It's that spirit of innovation that recently attracted me back to PC gaming and away from the HD Twins.

Where the hell are you getting you info from, your so wrong it hurts. Braid was massively profitable, the guy who developed it made millions. XBLA is huge for independent developers. Braid, Castle Crashers, Shadow Complex, Splosion Man, Trials HD, Geometry Wars, Bionic Commando Rearmed, The Dishwasher, I made a game with Zombies in it, puzzlequest. I could go on but it would fill the page and thats just for xbla, PSN has a ton of amazing and profitable Indy games too. Next time you try to post biased crud do some research please or you will be made to look ignorant.

EDIT: I stand corrected on Braid, but that was never a 360 exclusive.

As for the rest of the games that you listed, they either made popular games for PC first or weren't developed by an indie dev house in the first place...

Castle Crashers was developed by The Behemoth, a developer that got its start with Alien Hominid on the PC.

Shadow Complex was developed, in part, by Epic Games and isn't an indie title in any sense of the word.

'Splosion Man was developed by Twisted Pixel. Their first title was The Maw, a PC/360 game.

Trials HD is an enhanced iteration of a series of free PC flash games.

Geometry Wars was developed by Bizarre Creations, a dev house owned by Activision Blizzard. They aren't indie.

Bionic Commando Rearmed was developed by GRIN, best known for developing the Tom Clancy's GRAW games. Not indie.

Ska Software were developing indie PC titles for years before releasing The Dishwasher and that zombie game.

Puzzle Quest was released first on DS/PSP before hitting XBLA, and received a PC release a mere two weeks after that.

It was a 360 exclusive for the first year of its life and was only ported over because of its massive success on the 360.

That was a tiny list, there have been many many more games all released on xbla and all being greatly profitable. You don't seem to understand what an independent developer is. Who cares if they made games on the pc before, I don't see castle crashers or splosion man or undertow on another system do you? I made a game with zombies in it was released on XNA not xbla, which in case you forgot allows anyone in their homes to make a game for the 360. Just admit that your original statement was you just talking out of your ass and stop digging yourself into a deeper hole.

You seem to think that because someone made freeware for the PC before they started making games for the 360 that means their not an independent developer. If you don't understand how stupid that train of thought is I don't know what to say.

 

 



                                           

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