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Forums - General Discussion - Healthcare reform passes the House

NKAJ said:
Kasz216 said:
NKAJ said:
ironman said:
Well, hopefully the senate has the brains to say no. Canada is just one example of how horrible the universal health-care is. Look at Great Britain...oh and how about our very own Medicare and Medicaid. Any time government gets involved, well, it's like constipation, bloated and painful, with no benefits whatsoever.


sorry coudnt agree less...america is the only "wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage" (i.e. some kind of insurance).America still psends the most amount of money per person on health

And we're passing a bill that will probably raise that amount... so... I don't see how it's going to help that.

http://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/press-release/economist-says-healthcare-reform-bill-will-raise-spending-20-percent-gdp-%E2%80%98much-2017%E2%80%99

 

Which is the issue.  Government run healthcare will actually cost us even mroe when it comes to healthcare spending as apart of GDP.  America spends more then europe despite not having a universal system because America is a lot different then europe in many ways.


yeah but surely this money is actually going to help far more people? so the spendingper person will go down? or i am just making a hole for myself

Cost per GDP is spending per person.

Healthcare costs include hospital bills and the like.

Some people will pay less.

Some people will pay more.

Some people who paid nothing because it didn't make sense for them to have healthcare will pay a lot more.

Overall the country will spend more.


More people will be covered by health insurance... yet we'll be spending more as a country instead of less.

It's not like even uninsured people don't get healthcare now anwyay though.  The widely used numbers of people who die "because they don't have healthcare" are generally a myth made up by bad statistics.  Where they compare the uninsured and insured death rates.  Not noting that the poor die more then the rich in every country in high percentages.  Even in the UK with equal treatment a poor person is like, I want to say is like 50%+ more likely to die of any treatment.

In the end, a lot less people are going to be helped then people think.  Really, if we're going to spend a trillion dollars.  Using it to improve the health and wealth of the poor instead of the healthcare of the poor would be a much more viable option and be more likely to save money.



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Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:

Alternative Republican plans I've read about all seem a bit, well, Patronising as opposed to anything else tbh.

I don't know... the main differences seem to be....

 

Democrats

Extend coverage to 36 million

Reduce Premiums to the consumer.  (While rising healthcare spending at a cost of GDP at higher rates then it's rising now..)

Cost 1 Trillion.

 

Republicans

Extend coverage to only like 3 million.

Reduce Premiums

Cost 64 billion.

 

The Republican bill doesn't really extend coverage... but it seems to do a lot more with what it's spending... and has a much better chance of actually lowering GDP healthcare expenditures... which seems to be the biggest complaing people always have in these arguements. 

80% of people are already happy with their coverage... including a lot of people that are uninsured.  Only 67% are happy with the costs.

Attacking costs, and making provisions for the few not happy with their care is the right way to do it.

Not revising everything to where it's a totally different system 80% of the people may or may not be happy about and will cost us more in the short and longrun as a country.


The republican plan with some democratic ammendments would be much more sensible.

Well as you say at the end, mixing plans would be good. I'm sure that the Republican plan is (what I would call) patronising to attempt to influence the Democrats plan to be honest. Taking the good qualities of both would be the best way to achieve a positive general consensus, and that is what a lot of Republicans are trying to do.

In a way I don't really blame them for having such patronising plans, it's just a method of getting their point heard and incorporated.

Although. Universal is just that, universal. I never get the feeling when hearing about Republican alternative plans that they want theirs to be universal.



highwaystar101 said:
Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:

Alternative Republican plans I've read about all seem a bit, well, Patronising as opposed to anything else tbh.

I don't know... the main differences seem to be....

 

Democrats

Extend coverage to 36 million

Reduce Premiums to the consumer.  (While rising healthcare spending at a cost of GDP at higher rates then it's rising now..)

Cost 1 Trillion.

 

Republicans

Extend coverage to only like 3 million.

Reduce Premiums

Cost 64 billion.

 

The Republican bill doesn't really extend coverage... but it seems to do a lot more with what it's spending... and has a much better chance of actually lowering GDP healthcare expenditures... which seems to be the biggest complaing people always have in these arguements. 

80% of people are already happy with their coverage... including a lot of people that are uninsured.  Only 67% are happy with the costs.

Attacking costs, and making provisions for the few not happy with their care is the right way to do it.

Not revising everything to where it's a totally different system 80% of the people may or may not be happy about and will cost us more in the short and longrun as a country.


The republican plan with some democratic ammendments would be much more sensible.

Well as you say at the end, mixing plans would be good. I'm sure that the Republican plan is (what I would call) patronising to attempt to influence the Democrats plan to be honest. Taking the good qualities of both would be the best way to achieve a positive general consensus.

Although. Universal is just that, universal. I never get the feeling when hearing about Republican alternative plans that they want theirs to be universal.

That's because they don't.  What they want is for Healthcare to be affordable to everybody... but not be universal.

It may be hard to believe in the UK where your used to it....

However there are large numbers of people in the US who don't want Healthcare Insurance.  They just want Healthcare.

They've done the numbers and found it really unlikely they're going to get sick until later... and see the costs of healthinsurance as being just too high, when instead they could be saving or investing that money... and always just pay for their healthcare bills out of pocket....

and actually come ahead on the deal.

 

I mean... as an example.  I spend, ~$150 a month on healthcare.

Outside of regular checkups, i've been to the doctors maybe 4 times.... spent about $400 worth total of treatment my insurance covered.


I've spent about... $9,000 dollars worth of money... to receive $400 worth of benefits.  That's the thing about insruance.  It's profitable to insurance companies because most people don't need to collect.  A lot of people would rather roll the dice this way until they hit their late 20's early 30's or get married... there are others that would rather just live this way they're entire life.  Well until Medicare.

In general, the republicans want to perserve peoples right to deserve what kind of medical coverage they get... and if they even want it at all.



If its passage through the clown college that is the House was this narrow, I don't see how it can ever get through the Senate, which is paralyzed by grand-old-man-itis.



badgenome said:
If its passage through the clown college that is the House was this narrow, I don't see how it can ever get through the Senate, which is paralyzed by grand-old-man-itis.

They'll get over it.

The main reason it almost didn't pass was they changed the bill so money for abortions was mostly nerfed.  Basically if your on the public option... you need to pay for your own abortion.  Which is well... stupid.

Well unless they decide they don't want to pay an extra 5.4% of their salary to the government when they retire.

Senators can make a lot from giving speeches i hear.



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Kasz216 said:
badgenome said:
If its passage through the clown college that is the House was this narrow, I don't see how it can ever get through the Senate, which is paralyzed by grand-old-man-itis.

They'll get over it.

The main reason it almost didn't pass was they changed the bill so money for abortions was mostly nerfed.  Basically if your on the public option... you need to pay for your own abortion.  Which is well... stupid.

Well unless they decide they don't want to pay an extra 5.4% of their salary to the government when they retire.

Senators can make a lot from giving speeches i hear.

I'd not be surprised to see the Senate pass a bill, but I don't see how they can pass this particular one. Pelosi could afford to lose about 40 votes; Reid can't really afford to lose any. Pelosi still had to nix tough language aimed at locking illegal immigrants out of the system in order to keep the Congressional Hispanic Caucus on board, and if anything, I'd think that the Stupak amendment resulted in a net gain of votes for this bill.

And she still had to pass around Dove ice cream bars to the undecided! Frankly, I don't think Reid has a chance in hell unless he rolls up his sleeves and breaks out the Ben & Jerry's Heath Bar Reform.