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Forums - Sales Discussion - Which is moraly (not legaly) worse? Secondhand _ Pirating _ Renting_Lending

ironman on 25 October 2009
vlad321 said:
ironman said:
Onyxmeth said:
ironman said:
Onyxmeth said:
 

You're still talking about the moral responsibility of the collective. That bears nothing on the moral responsibility of the individual. Collectively, used game buyers keep the cycle going. Individually, they don't contribute a damn thing.

Yes they do. The money they spend on the used games will (in most cases) go towards a new game. Buying a used game is just as moral as selling one.

There are also unseen benefits that emerged because of piracy existing in the bigger picture, but that doesn't mean an individual pirate gets off the hook.

Yes, but the damages outwiegh the benefits.

 

1. How do you figure? The money a person spends on used games will then go to them buying a new game? I don't see how that makes sense.

Yes, If I have a game that I bought new, then beat. And I want to get that new release that just came out, but I am a few bucks short, I will then sell the game on the used market and use the money to buy that new release.

Also why do you consider any of this moraly obectional? I'm basing it on the argument that the publisher should see money, and depriving them of it is the objectional part. If you differ in your stance we might as well stop talking now.

The publisher will see money, the only way the publisher could have been deprived money, is if a person did not buy the game because they didn't know if it was worth the money, and they knew they couldn't sell it.

2. Regarding the piracy, prove it. Prove the damages outweight the benefits, and also prove the used market is more beneficial than harmful. Publishers seem to think both are pretty bad, so if it's their interests we're protecting in this moral battle, we also have to abide by their stance on both issues.

Already done...twice... Pirating takes place when one person purchaes a game, and with it the ability to play said game. They then upload it to TPB for many people to download. The don't lose the ability to play the game, and many others gain the ability to play a game for free. Fewer people who pirate games, are likely to actually purchase it. (the game pirating demographics are much differant than the music pirating demographics so that does not apply incase you were going to bring up those)

When a used game is sold, the ability to play said game is transferred.

Publishers are not thinking of the rammafications of doing away with the used market. Pirating would skyrocket, saled would plummet. I refuse to abide by a publishers stance, they have (what they believe) a vested interest in making everybody pay for the game brand new, and that is downright criminal.

 

1. Why would he spend more money on the new title when he can just buy it used for less money? In which case the publisher will continue to not see money.

Because, as I have told you before, he can't get the game day one and enjoy it untill somebody else has already done so.

2. Please show me HOW pirate music and pirate gaming demographics are different. Prove means show me data, not just talk out of your ass, believe it or not the 2 people ae pretty similar. People who play video games listen to music, go figure, and people who know how to download music also probably play video games or they wouldn't be so good at pirating the music. Also the fact that pirating would skyrocket if used market goes away jsut goes to show you that the two are indeed very close to each other.

Easy, most people (if not all) who pirate games, pirate music. Many who pirate musc do not pirate games. Also the age demographics are differant. Just from what I have seen at Demonoid, the majority of game uploaders are in the 16 - 27 age bracket. This is not the case with music uploaders.

And actually, the fact that pirating would skyrocket if the used market goes away, shows you that you should not do away with the used game market. But thanks for trying!

 



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S.T.A.G.E. on 25 October 2009

In order from the greatest offense to the least:

Pirating (devs get nothing..... period)
Renting (devs get no royalties)
Second Hand Shops (Devs and publishers only see a fraction of the stores true sales)
Lending (It is your copy and you can do what you want with it as long as you do not makes copies of it)



ironman on 25 October 2009
S.T.A.G.E. said:
In order from the greatest offense to the least:

Pirating (devs get nothing..... period)
Renting (devs get no royalties) but often times when a person rents a game, they choose to purchase a copy.
Second Hand Shops (Devs and publishers only see a fraction of the stores true sales) For that game, it would be less without the used market.
Lending (It is your copy and you can do what you want with it as long as you do not makes copies of it)

 



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aher052 on 25 October 2009

when people that buy 2nd hand it is the same as people who pirate.....the dev sees no money either way...

pirating isnt necessarily a bad thing....because people who pirate are not gonna buy the game if they had to so its actually better that they pirate so if they really get into the game they will buy the next one..or buy DLC so at least the dev makes some money....



Predictions

GT5 will sell 3.2million + first week on ps3 (made 06 March 2010)

FFXIII Versus will have higher Metacritic scores than FFXIII after the first month.... Bet going on with perpride - loser changes sig for a month

KH3 will be PS3 EXCLUSIVE - willing to bet removal from vgchartz for a month


S.T.A.G.E. on 25 October 2009
ironman said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
In order from the greatest offense to the least:

Pirating (devs get nothing..... period)
Renting (devs get no royalties) but often times when a person rents a game, they choose to purchase a copy.
Second Hand Shops (Devs and publishers only see a fraction of the stores true sales) For that game, it would be less without the used market.
Lending (It is your copy and you can do what you want with it as long as you do not makes copies of it)

 

Response:

Renting- It matters not. Obscuring things to fit your subjective reality doesn't actually change the reality for the creators and publishing houses. If you purchase something its relevance exists in a totally different realm.

Second hand- What?....No. If the used market didn't exist, games wouldn't have set prices not based on the popularity and sales of a title, but by the passing years and a publishers view on when a games price should drop. Take Xbox Live for instance, the digitally distributed titles have the same price for an extremely long time without interruption because the owners of the premium service call the shots. Look at how long it takes titles to drop price to 'Greatest Hits' and 'Platinum Hits' and try to pick up the same game three to five months after launch (used) and see whos price would be less without the used market. With the used market the companies that sell the used games and the gamers win. Companies only see fractions of the true cost. 



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S.T.A.G.E. on 25 October 2009
aher052 said:
when people that buy 2nd hand it is the same as people who pirate.....the dev sees no money either way...

pirating isnt necessarily a bad thing....because people who pirate are not gonna buy the game if they had to so its actually better that they pirate so if they really get into the game they will buy the next one..or buy DLC so at least the dev makes some money....

Actually, a person who pirates has no rights. They have no right to the product. A person who buys second hand has rights to the product because they physically own it and the former owner gave up their rights to that copy for either the equal or discounted price. If the second hand market was more illegal, Ebay and Amazon wouldn't be as popular as they are today. Pirates go to seedy sites to look up torrents and P2P sharing engines. Governments do not crack down on second hand buyers, because that is how we find a treasure in someone elses trash. Governments crack down on pirates because they definititvely block off sales to a company because they can.



Wonktonodi on 25 October 2009

If a developer sees their game selling for $30 consistently on ebay they can do things about it. offering more on the disc lowering the price coming out with special edition bundling it with other games. how can a developer see how many people are prating the game? With the used market the know what people are willing to pay for the game with pirating they only know there are people not willing to pay. Pirating doesn't show the developer what people are willing to pay for the game the used market does. The developer can work to get the money people are spending on it used. The developer has no idea what I pirate would pay only what they wouldn't pay.
I can get a copy of bioshock new for $18 if there were no used market it would most likely be more not $60 still since the demand for the game isn't that high.

I would bring up other arguments but since many are what pirates try to use I see no point. I see a big difference between getting a copy of the game the developer made and creating my own copy. The used copy that I buy I know they made. One could try and say this with pirating but you are only copying a copy not one that was made by them. Someone had to upload it to begin with and hack it but at that point it's no longer the one the developer made and a copy or a hack. The disc I buy was a disc they made.

Also after the game gets made it's not longer the developer g



Avinash_Tyagi on 25 October 2009

Piracy is sanctioned by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, so none of that is immoral



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

aher052 on 25 October 2009

I mean if the person was never gonna pay 80 bucks for a game and they pirate it, the dev doesnt actually lose anything because if they were not able to pirate it then they would have never bought the game....so in a way to those people who pirate it is better for the dev that they do pirate that game because if they get into it they will tell their friends etc and can even buy DLC or buy the next installment so the dev makes money....better that than nothing



Predictions

GT5 will sell 3.2million + first week on ps3 (made 06 March 2010)

FFXIII Versus will have higher Metacritic scores than FFXIII after the first month.... Bet going on with perpride - loser changes sig for a month

KH3 will be PS3 EXCLUSIVE - willing to bet removal from vgchartz for a month


Hephaestos on 25 October 2009
ironman said:

Well, even if it were, the OP is wrong on several levels. Everything but Pirating gives devs more money.

That is why in the OP pirating is the only one where I say devs get NO money (often pirate copies are before release, so not bought).

 

Also if an OP was right on everything, there would be no place for discution. 200 posts means a lot was wrong according to some, and a lot more according to others. I'm glad the discution is civile though.



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