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Forums - Gaming - The increasing popularity of games may hurt games as an art.

Spummbuddy on 04 October 2009
bdbdbd said:
@Silicon: Actually digital distribution doesn't remove the real problem, which is high cost of development. And, pursuing the "art" is nothing but ramping up the cost and going towards smaller audience.
The only way to go around the issue is to expand the audience and lower the dev costs. Biggest enemy for "art in videogames" is the "art in videogames".

@Spummbuddy: I do agree that when talking about videogames as art, the element of art has to be in the interaction and how the control over the content is given to the player.

Problem in the OP was that it was rather typical rant about "system X doesn't have the games i want". Whether that was your intention or not, it still was what the OP seemed to hold inside.

Anyway, after reading your "explation post" you obviously wanted to complain about the lack of originality and creativity in games, which more likely will increase when popularity of gaming grows.

Everyone has their opinions, but personally i'm not disappointed at all with the new game ideas on Wii. The implementation of Wiis controls in the "old idea games", however, have been a little disappointing in quite a few (3rd party) games, mostly because they have "had to put the motion controls into the game".

Ahh, yes, the Wii statements in the OP were merely a bullet-point, I don't think Nintendo are the source of all problems or anything, I don't hate the Wii design, I've hate how things have been turning out on the Wii, if Nintendo released a new imaginative IP, I would probably buy it, but they've been remaking the same games for too long, I'm not buying anymore Zeldas, Marios, Metroids, or Smash Bros, they were all good, but its gone on for far too long.

Sadly franchises make more money than originals, Nintendo know this and have been riding that wave for a long time, if Miyamoto released a new game with a world full of the level of imagination he use to put into games, I'd buy it, as soon as I could.

@The Ghost: Heh, the Doom Clone comment made me laugh, Its funny because Id Software were the innovators of the genre, now all they do is cookie-cut like 90% of everyone else in the industry, they really did pioneer the practice. Their Tech department is great, they need some new damn designers though.

A Valve-Id merge would be probably one of the best things that could happen to the genre, with Valves design department, and Id's tech and ability to get things done on time. It's not likely to happen EVER, but that would be cool.

 



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ChichiriMuyo on 04 October 2009
Spummbuddy said:
bdbdbd said:
@Silicon: Actually digital distribution doesn't remove the real problem, which is high cost of development. And, pursuing the "art" is nothing but ramping up the cost and going towards smaller audience.
The only way to go around the issue is to expand the audience and lower the dev costs. Biggest enemy for "art in videogames" is the "art in videogames".

@Spummbuddy: I do agree that when talking about videogames as art, the element of art has to be in the interaction and how the control over the content is given to the player.

Problem in the OP was that it was rather typical rant about "system X doesn't have the games i want". Whether that was your intention or not, it still was what the OP seemed to hold inside.

Anyway, after reading your "explation post" you obviously wanted to complain about the lack of originality and creativity in games, which more likely will increase when popularity of gaming grows.

Everyone has their opinions, but personally i'm not disappointed at all with the new game ideas on Wii. The implementation of Wiis controls in the "old idea games", however, have been a little disappointing in quite a few (3rd party) games, mostly because they have "had to put the motion controls into the game".

Ahh, yes, the Wii statements in the OP were merely a bullet-point, I don't think Nintendo are the source of all problems or anything, I don't hate the Wii design, I've hate how things have been turning out on the Wii, if Nintendo released a new imaginative IP, I would probably buy it, but they've been remaking the same games for too long, I'm not buying anymore Zeldas, Marios, Metroids, or Smash Bros, they were all good, but its gone on for far too long.

Sadly franchises make more money than originals, Nintendo know this and have been riding that wave for a long time, if Miyamoto released a new game with a world full of the level of imagination he use to put into games, I'd buy it, as soon as I could.

@The Ghost: Heh, the Doom Clone comment made me laugh, Its funny because Id Software were the innovators of the genre, now all they do is cookie-cut like 90% of everyone else in the industry, they really did pioneer the practice. Their Tech department is great, they need some new damn designers though.

A Valve-Id merge would be probably one of the best things that could happen to the genre, with Valves design department, and Id's tech and ability to get things done on time. It's not likely to happen EVER, but that would be cool.

 

And this is the problem with people who think of games as art.  They over-rate origination rather than evaluating somethign for its intrinsic value.  Doom seems like a masterpiece because it was the first to do the genre well, not because at its core there is somethign wholly artistic about it.  Frankly the reason it caught on was good marketing and good luck, and Wolfenstein before it was just as much a shining example of what the genre could become.  Yet it's the games that came later that actually became that level of greatness, and they shouldn't be downplayed simply because somethign similar came first.



You do not have the right to never be offended.

Slimebeast on 04 October 2009
The Ghost of RubangB said:
RolStoppable said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Nintendo's one of a very small handful of developers that actually treat video games like art, so I'm really surprised you see them as the bad guys here. It's usually us Nintendo fans whining about rising dev costs and bigger studios eating all the small indie studios, as those are the main problems facing game art. Shovelware isn't the threat. The threat is too much money and too many people being involved in the development process. Only a few companies can afford to take chances, and even fewer of them actually do.

I don't think the Wii is forcing developers to make more shovelware. Shovelware is always there, and is always attracted to 2 things: the cheapest development costs and the largest install base. Because the Wii has both of these, it attracts the most shovelware, but the shovelware was always there on the PS2, PS1, SNES, NES, Atari 2600, and everything else, really, and to this day when I walk into an arcade I might only want to play one or two of the games. Even in magical Japanese arcades.

I completely agree that video games are a very high art form due to their interactivity and the way they can make you live through an experience unlike any other art form, and that most games fail to see this potential.

But I disagree with Slimebeast that it's about atmosphere and sophistication. I do think those are important parts of the art of video games, but not the main draw in most games. Video games have graphic art, music art, sound art, narrative art, cinematic art, level design (one of my favorite art forms), and yes, even gameplay art. To me Tetris is a beautiful work of art and Pajitnov is a genius.

Games can approach art in many different ways though, and none are really superior or inferior to each other. Some people like paintings, some people like sculptures. Some people like games that play like epic novels (Final Fantasy 4), some people like games that play like epic cinema (Final Fantasy 6), some people like music games, some people like games that look like beautiful paintings (Okami, Muramasa), some people like games that are physics-based sculpting games (level editors, Tetris, Boom Blox, whatever), some people like games that feel like acid trips, and for some reason some people like to play Doom clones for 15 years straight.

You wouldn't know art if it crawled up your ass, died and blamed Wii Fit.

I majored in film studies.  Art's the only thing I know, which is why I can't get a real fucking job and can't even afford video games.

Hahaha! Comment of the week.



bdbdbd on 04 October 2009

@Spummbuddy: Well SMG and Mario Kart Wii differed largely from their predecessors, while Wii Sports, Fit and Music were more about new imaginative ideas. Then again, the games mentioned can be subject to critisism aswell.

I'm not sure whether a merger of Valve and id would benefit anyone. Something like Valve and Hudson could be very interesting and might actually lead into new kinds of game innovations.



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Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

Reasonable on 04 October 2009
The Ghost of RubangB said:
RolStoppable said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Nintendo's one of a very small handful of developers that actually treat video games like art, so I'm really surprised you see them as the bad guys here. It's usually us Nintendo fans whining about rising dev costs and bigger studios eating all the small indie studios, as those are the main problems facing game art. Shovelware isn't the threat. The threat is too much money and too many people being involved in the development process. Only a few companies can afford to take chances, and even fewer of them actually do.

I don't think the Wii is forcing developers to make more shovelware. Shovelware is always there, and is always attracted to 2 things: the cheapest development costs and the largest install base. Because the Wii has both of these, it attracts the most shovelware, but the shovelware was always there on the PS2, PS1, SNES, NES, Atari 2600, and everything else, really, and to this day when I walk into an arcade I might only want to play one or two of the games. Even in magical Japanese arcades.

I completely agree that video games are a very high art form due to their interactivity and the way they can make you live through an experience unlike any other art form, and that most games fail to see this potential.

But I disagree with Slimebeast that it's about atmosphere and sophistication. I do think those are important parts of the art of video games, but not the main draw in most games. Video games have graphic art, music art, sound art, narrative art, cinematic art, level design (one of my favorite art forms), and yes, even gameplay art. To me Tetris is a beautiful work of art and Pajitnov is a genius.

Games can approach art in many different ways though, and none are really superior or inferior to each other. Some people like paintings, some people like sculptures. Some people like games that play like epic novels (Final Fantasy 4), some people like games that play like epic cinema (Final Fantasy 6), some people like music games, some people like games that look like beautiful paintings (Okami, Muramasa), some people like games that are physics-based sculpting games (level editors, Tetris, Boom Blox, whatever), some people like games that feel like acid trips, and for some reason some people like to play Doom clones for 15 years straight.

You wouldn't know art if it crawled up your ass, died and blamed Wii Fit.

I majored in film studies.  Art's the only thing I know, which is why I can't get a real fucking job and can't even afford video games.

And you get insulated when you're down.  Got to lol at Rol's comment though - one of those great lines which is meaningless and yet you know exactly what he means.

 



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

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Reasonable on 04 October 2009
RolStoppable said:
Reasonable said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
RolStoppable said:

You wouldn't know art if it crawled up your ass, died and blamed Wii Fit.

I majored in film studies.  Art's the only thing I know, which is why I can't get a real fucking job and can't even afford video games.

And you get insulated when you're down.  Got to lol at Rol's comment though - one of those great lines which is meaningless and yet you know exactly what he means.

It's indeed a great line, it's from RubangB after all.

How ironically ironic.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

famousringo on 04 October 2009

It's not the increasing popularity (read: expanding games market) which threatens creative, artistic games. An expanding market makes more room for risky little niches to be served. A small market would choke out those niches thanks to the small customer base.

It's the increasing cost of developing games which is hampering creativity. A suit isn't going to invest 20 million dollars on some crazy game which has no proven market. He needs a reliable return on that much money. But he might be willing to spend 1 million or less on a big gamble, because big risks sometimes yield big rewards. That's why you see the most creative and risky games going to cheap platforms like PSN/XBLA/WiiWare, handheld gaming, and to a lesser degree, Wii retail.

Since handheld and downloadable games seem to be doing rather well, I wouldn't worry about the expanding business of games squeezing out creativity. In fact, I don't think gaming has ever been more creative than it is right now. Just because artsy games are rarely seen moving millions of units at a $60 price tag doesn't mean that they're in danger of dying out. Just don't ever expect them to show the production values of a blockbuster franchise.



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The Ghost of RubangB on 04 October 2009

I just had to look up the thread I originally said that in. Wow. March 9th, 2008.



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Reasonable on 04 October 2009
famousringo said:
It's not the increasing popularity (read: expanding games market) which threatens creative, artistic games. An expanding market makes more room for risky little niches to be served. A small market would choke out those niches thanks to the small customer base.

It's the increasing cost of developing games which is hampering creativity. A suit isn't going to invest 20 million dollars on some crazy game which has no proven market. He needs a reliable return on that much money. But he might be willing to spend 1 million or less on a big gamble, because big risks sometimes yield big rewards. That's why you see the most creative and risky games going to cheap platforms like PSN/XBLA/WiiWare, handheld gaming, and to a lesser degree, Wii retail.

Since handheld and downloadable games seem to be doing rather well, I wouldn't worry about the expanding business of games squeezing out creativity. In fact, I don't think gaming has ever been more creative than it is right now. Just because artsy games are rarely seen moving millions of units at a $60 price tag doesn't mean that they're in danger of dying out. Just don't ever expect them to show the production values of a blockbuster franchise.

Good post.  I agree with that.  Ideally, we're heading for a model that can support big commercial titles as well as artistic experiments and everything in-between.  It's not there yet, but the framework seems to be emerging nicely.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

Avinash_Tyagi on 04 October 2009

Good, gaming is entertainment, not art



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)