On the bright side.  Iraq is shaping up nicely.

I was against going there... but since we did I'm glad we didn't pull out half way like people wanted.

Now Afghanistan.... who would of thought that war would be the bigger screw up.

Taliban, Warlords, the government.... all really aren't worth having lead it at this point what with them rigging elections....

and we can't do shit because to do so we'd need the combined support of India and Pakistan... which is like getting the combined support of Israel and Palestine.

Eh.  Both parties are activly making things worse.

The difference was... at least the democrats would fix the republican breaches of personal liberties... which are easier to change... but more dangerous if left alone too long.

Now however the Democrats aren't fixing that because it fits their agenda... hell in cases they're making things worse now... that and watching how they construct programs... it just really looks awful.

I'm really convinced we have one of the worst democracies in the world as far as efficency is concerned.

So wait, the recession has made you like the Labour party MORE?

Kantor said: So wait, the recession has made you like the Labour party MORE?

Haha, no. Labour can't do a single thing how I would like to see it done. I do support the Liberal Demorats though, despite them being extremely unorganised (do they know there is an election on soon?).

Thats true. I'll give credit where credits due. Iraq is improving markedly now from what I've read and I do agree that if you have the audacity to start a war of "liberation" then you really must stay to the bitter end and rebuild the country. Although I wish the allied forces had taken a more Roman approach and altered existing systems instead of starting from scratch. But thats semantics.

Afganistan is very interesting because at least in Australia they stopped reporting about the war there soon after we invaded Iraq. I made the assumption back then that it was because the war wasn't going as well and the government was using Iraq to direct the publics attention elsewhere. Obviously thats speculation.

In regards to Pakistan, its also bad because a lot of insurgents and terrorists are trained there. Not to mention the fighting between the Pakistan government and the Taliban at the moment.
The middle east and areas close to it really are a mess.

FaRm -

From the Afghan war perspective, we (America) stopped reporting it too, because it became a backwater fight, and it was going very, very well. We had taken the country, the Taliban was in disarray, and Democracy was going well (in effect, where Iraq is now).

Of course, we pulled out some of the soldiers, let them self-govern a little more, and the bad guys came back....Not a fantastic situation.

Going back to OP, I think a lot of people changed their views after the recession. A lot of people have a horrible understanding of what free-market economics are, and merely assume that the government's role is very weak, whereas it's very involved. They then assume this meltdown was due to too little government, rather than too much, or too stupid.

Oh, and about religions teaching 'socialism' - Speaking from a Christian perspective:

1) Christianity never forced anyone to give. Although it represents a pure form of socialism from Acts 3-Acts 7 between quasi-communal property rights, welfare, and the like, it was all instigated from a voluntary point of view, not a government/forced point of view.

2) OT laws required the tax rate (effectively 10%) to be used every 3rd year (in effect, 3.3% of net taxes) to be spent on the poor and needy. However, the usage of the tax was under the taxpayer's discretion, not the governments.

3) Giving isn't mandated as required to get to heaven, but it's championed as one of, if not the, highest virtues in Christianity. Pulling up the verses associated with giving of time & money to the less fortunate would require quite a few pages of this forum.

Overall, religion (at least mine) champion the personal responsibility of every person to give to help the poor and needy. It was never required, forced, or coerced, but it was certainly stressed as a major Christian virtue, and at least for awhile, and in some churches, it's done right. The important part of this is that churches, and other groups that take charity as a personal responsibility tend to do a much, much better job of taking less money to do more when it comes to social welfare.

my views are pretty much the same as they were beforehand, though I know more about economic systems now than I did before

highwaystar101 said: Kantor said: So wait, the recession has made you like the Labour party MORE? Haha, no. Labour can't do a single thing how I would like to see it done. I do support the Liberal Demorats though, despite them being extremely unorganised (do they know there is an election on soon?).

you said 80/20 in favour of Capitalism, pre-reccession, New Labour I would have put near that mark anyway, Lib Dems are slightly more balanced than that, Conservatives are more in line eceonically with the 95/5 that you mentioned your views used to be.

ideally, the UK needs a party thats left of the liberal democrats but not as extreme as say the greens, if one comes along, id seriously consider joining/voting for them, till then ill have to decide between lib dems and greens 

SciFiBoy said: highwaystar101 said: Kantor said: So wait, the recession has made you like the Labour party MORE? Haha, no. Labour can't do a single thing how I would like to see it done. I do support the Liberal Demorats though, despite them being extremely unorganised (do they know there is an election on soon?). you said 80/20 in favour of Capitalism, pre-reccession, New Labour I would have put near that mark anyway, Lib Dems are slightly more balanced than that, Conservatives are more in line eceonically with the 95/5 that you mentioned your views used to be. ideally, the UK needs a party thats left of the liberal democrats but not as extreme as say the greens, if one comes along, id seriously consider joining/voting for them, till then ill have to decide between lib dems and greens

Lol, even our resident liberal hates Labour.

Basically, anyone except the BNP would be better than Labour. Maybe even the Green party, though I have no idea who they are or what they believe.

Kind of off topic, but something Kasz said made me think of how stupid "czar"s are.

VERY STUPID!