The end result you refer to is unknowable. You don't know how the pirated copy will effect the user. You assume the worse, that they intended to buy and did not because of the pirated version. What if they did not intend to buy and later did? While any number thrown around in this topic would be theoritical, i'd imagine a large amount of Chrono Trigger DS users got there first taste on an SNES rom.

As for used games, you have to remember there are only a certain amount of new games avialable as well. As time goes on, the number of used games will always go up as the new ones go down.

Although it's not the same as physicall taking something.  Some are very strict with their definition of stealing others are more loose with it.  I think of piracy as a form of theft.  It might not be as easy to mesure the economic effect as physical theft but by no means is it 0.  Just because they don't have less doesn't make you having a copy for nothing cost nothing.  Then there is the whole moral issue where will then get to those who have to pay more in places where they make less.  Personally I think of that as a form of theft by the companies makeing the sales. 

We as consumers should respect the copy right but we should also demand resonable prices for the products we recieve.  Takeing for nothing is not a good way to make demands. 

99% of games are over-priced and some devs/publishers, particularly those who take a 'release now patch later' or 'don't put it on the disc, make it DLC so not everyone can have it and we extort more from the gamers' attitudes so in those circumstances I believe pirate away. Also, if you are poor and cannot afford games piracy may be your only option.

Long story short: Piracy FTW

Changing a words meaning to fit your personal definition is not how language works. If you are speaking English then the word has a set meaning. Just because you want to label someone for a crime a certain way does not make it correct. Murder is not considered theft even though people will say they stole a life. That argument holds no water.

Just because there is an economic effect does not mean it is theft. Poor reviews for a game can cause the sales to go down. This is not a measurable econmic effect, but it is greater than 0. By your logic people who give bad reviews should be considered thieves. It just doesn't make sense to view the problem from that angle.

I never once claimed that having an illegal copy of the game cost nothing to everyone involved. You should try arguing the point I am making rather than the points you wish I were making. It makes the conversation much better. You can think of it as theft of the sales all you want, but that is wrong. Without concrete evidence that the person would have bought a legal copy rather than a pirated one there can be no assertion of a loss. Different crimes have different names for a reason. Insurance fraud directly costs someone money and is not theft. Copyright infringement is not theft.

In some countries, people would never be able to afford games without piracy and honestly, I doubt the actual software developers get rich of the software sales. CEO's of the big publishers horde the vast majority of profits...just ask Kotick where all the GH and COD money goes.

I actually would confess that I pirated FFXII because it "released" on the internet before getting to store shelves. I have since bought a real copy (especially because I needed to be able to keep revisiting the even game when a new hopefully PS2 compatible console is the norm) so the whole idea that pirates never buy what they have pirated is flawed.

OK.

I ran through the rest of the thread, and since yesterday, at least two people admitted that they wouldn't copy a Ferrari out of thin air, because that would hurt the industry.

amp316, superchunk: Unfortunatelly, you are luddites.

Our hypothetical car-creating magic is not different from a new machine, that would make producing Ferraris extremelly simple and cheap. Your logic naturally continues in the idea that we should not use any new technology, because that would take away jobs, and hurt the old industry.  That's a fallacy.

If everyone could copy a Ferrari, the car industry would indeed go bankrupt, and people would lose their job. (If they would invent that machine, it would simply become more efficent and smaller, but people still would lose their job). But looking at the bigger picture, everyone else would save lots of money for not having to buy another car ever, they would spend this money on other things, the economy would rise. 

It's almost the same with information technology. The publishers could search for alternative incomes, to survive the change, but simply banning piracy is like banning machines to save the old ways of the industry.

I think that people are giving piracy too much credit. While I don't agree with what pirates do, I do NOT think that it affects the industry as much as some make it out to be. Buying used games hurts it much more from the way I can see it. This is probably because compared to piracy, buying used games is much more mainstream. Also with the rise of directly selling products person to person either through something like Ebay or some other service it helps the industry even less when in comparison to buying a used game at the store. Piracy isn't the only answer to why games don't sell, and shouldn't be the only one blamed. This is even if it is considered the most ethically wrong out of these things.

Oh and btw, the thing that is hurting the industry the most is technological leaps. Because as time goes by, it requires a larger leap to get equivalent results in comparison to previous generations, development costs go up, and therefore game prices increase. This makes people buy more Used games or even pirate games as time goes by. Not only that, but you HAVE to sell more copies to make a profit, and when only the big names are doing it you have a problem. So everything isn't as simple 1:1 logic. Even if all piracy was eliminated in video games, the industry wouldn't be in much of a better situation than it is now. There are some exceptions though where achieving piracy is very simple and cheap, such as that found on the PSP and PC. In these cases piracy is a significant challenge, and one that should be overcome. Overall though, it doesn't seem to be a big problem as you guys make it out to be. Games are $60 now because of development costs. There is no piracy on the PS3, and very little on the 360, yet they are priced the highest. The Wii has full-blown homebrew applications that allow you to play any backup you want for free by only using an SD card yet it is thriving and we games sell for $50 new, and sometimes even $40 new.

Edit: Oh and I agree piracy is NOT theft. That doesn't mean it isn't illegal, and to some equally bad.

Edit 2: Oh and btw, I'm talking about Video Game piracy only. It works different in things such as Music.

Sigh not this old chestnut.

You can push and pull the arguments as to moral theft left or right. You can argue till the cows come home and make analogies that would make your granny blush.

At the end of the day it doesnt matter. From a legal perspective, the world over, copying a DVD or a Video game IS NOT THEFT. It never has been, it never will be.

The Recording Industries and Video game DEVS keep using the word THEFT because for most people THEFT has more gravity than COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

They rely on peoples unquestioning stance regarding THEFT, to propegate a misunderstanding to hopefully shame the pirates.

It is ILLEGAL but it IS NOT THEFT.

Once more for the seriously deluded.

COPYING VIDEO GAMES IS NOT THEFT.
COPYING DVD's IS NOT THEFT.

BOTH OF THE ABOVE ARE ILLEGAL ! (Unless made for personal use only)
THEY ARE COVERED UNDER COPYRIGHT LAW.

Seriously guys use the brains god gave you.
How many file sharers have you seen found guilty of THEFT ?

I haven't read the whole thread, just the OP, but I know that when I download stuff it's usually stuff that I would never pay for. Either that, or the product simply isn't available legally anymore. From what I've understood, this is the case for many people, so no profit is removed. Sure, it's a very morally ambiguous area, but the fact of the matter is, piracy hasn't lowered profit as much as people like to believe.