By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sales - Piracy not theft because its a copy..

amp316 on 11 August 2009
FayeC said:
amp316 said:
FayeC said:
amp316 said:
zexen_lowe said:
I won't post my thoughts on piracy because everyone on this site knows them. I just think that those stalwart anti-piracy defenders might wanna try to live some years in a third-world country. Let's see how much you oppose piracy when what you earn isn't enough to buy a single original game

I can't afford a Ferrari and want one so what should I do? 

Well if you can manage a free one, while not taking some one else's car then I suggest you do it! If you could in fact pull a farrari out of thin air, you certainly would not need to buy one anymore, but its silly to say you stole something that would not have exisited had it not been for your own efforts.

If I and everyone else did that, it would hurt the manufacturer and then Ferraris would not exist anymore.  

Pirating games does the same thing.  It takes money out of the manufacturer's pocket and hurts the gaming industry.  

But it doesnt take money out of anyone's pocket. It doesnt take ANYTHING anywhere. It creates a new product, one that didnt exist before, and one that certainly can't "belong" to some one else.

 

If anything, it serves to help the consumer. By making sure the consumer gets a fair deal on games, the industy is made stronger. Used games do this similarly. When someone buys a used game for 5 bucks less than the new copy, its almost a sure thing they think the new game is too expensive.

You are wrong.  If everyone could get a "copy" of anything, most people wouldn't pay for anything.  I could get a copy of all of my clothes, food, games, vehicles, toilet paper, tooth paste, etc. and according to you this wouldn't be hurting anyone.  If everyone could do this with everything and thought like you, then the economy would completely crash, no companies would exist, and we'd be back in the dark ages hunting for food with sharpened sticks.  I know that this is an extreme example, but that is the road that things would eventually go down.  



Proud member of the SONIC SUPPORT SQUAD

Tag "Sorry man. Someone pissed in my Wheaties."

"There are like ten games a year that sell over a million units."  High Voltage CEO -  Eric Nofsinger

Around the Network
FayeC on 11 August 2009
superchunk said:
FayeC said:
superchunk said:
NJ5 said:
It all depends on whether you would have bought the game if you hadn't pirated it.

This is to all of you who make the same illogical arguement.

You're still stealing the profit that could be earned. If you want to try the game out, play the demo. If you really want to play the full game

1. buy it new

2. buy it used from ebay for far less

3. get an account from one of those online renters

Basically, any time you gain a copy you did not some how pay for, you are stealing from the people who created it. There is no way around that simple fact.

If your logic held true, you could take that 60" HDTV, since you wouldn't have bought it anyways.

Your logic isnt very sound - Why is this user stealing profit buy pirating a game he wouldn't have bought anyway? If anything its a free as since this person could by a sequal or DLC for the game. In fact, even if they pirate the DLC and the sequal what has the company lost except the opportunity to sell him a game? That opportunity can't be assigned a numerical value the way so many try to.

 

If you would encorage them to buy used then your position isnt very steady, as that makes the people that created the game just as much money  as a pirated copy  would. Pirated games, like used games are rival goods to new games.

If someone never stole games, they would eventually buy some since they like to play games. Thus, its lost profit somewhere in the chain.

Buying used allows someone else to recoup money spent on that single copy, with that they are able to buy another new game. That's why used is not the same as piracy and still good for the industry.

Maybe they would, but maybe they wouldnt.  You  might assume a game enthusiast would find a way to play games some other way, but you certainly can't assign a number to it.

 

And buying used gives someone else money, thats to be sure, but assuming they will spend it on a new game is a huge leap to make. Maybe they will buy a new game, maybe they will buy a used one, perhaps they will buy a big mac, and put some quarters in a MVS machine while at the burger place? I find the leaps you are making to be far to broad to use such extreme judgements.



Gnizmo on 11 August 2009
superchunk said:
NJ5 said:
It all depends on whether you would have bought the game if you hadn't pirated it.

This is to all of you who make the same illogical arguement.

You're still stealing the profit that could be earned. If you want to try the game out, play the demo. If you really want to play the full game

1. buy it new

2. buy it used from ebay for far less

3. get an account from one of those online renters

Basically, any time you gain a copy you did not some how pay for, you are stealing from the people who created it. There is no way around that simple fact.

If your logic held true, you could take that 60" HDTV, since you wouldn't have bought it anyways.

Seriously? That has to be the absolute worst argument I have ever heard. Writing a bad review for a game will get people to not buy it. As such that can be seen as stealing the profit that could be earned from the developers and should be considered theft. This is the exact same logic your argument uses. Words have meaning for a reason. You are attempting to twist a word to fit a different crime so you can label people the way you want to. Without tangible loss there is no theft. There is simply no way around that.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

FayeC on 11 August 2009
superchunk said:
FayeC said:


but it's not using something different when you copy you are using the very same thing they made only just taking the digital form of it. You think that just because you aren't having a physical effect it makes have no effect on the product you've stolen? No because you aren't doing something new or offering an alternative you are just taking what someone made and giving it away for free. It's not like you make a similar game or movie or song and charge less for it. YOU take what someone already made make copies and give it away.

If I steal a disc off the shelf, then the store is out a copy. They are out that money they could have made on the copy. That is a solid loss. I can be assigned a monetary value.

Of I pirate an iso of that disc, then the store is out the money i might have spent to buy the game, this is not a monetary value and is not a loss. Is sony out of the price of a PS3 because i bought a 360 instead? No, its a rival good.

Just because there is a chance that you might not have bought the game and thus maybe no profit loss, doesn't make it ok. That's bullshit.

you also might have bought the game later. piracy is not a rival good. No competing company is making the money instead. money is not being transfered at all and the whole market loses.

So your argument stems from what a person would have done had they not pirated the game? This is a folly to base something as concrete a term as "loss" on.

The market doesnt lose. If You pirate a game instead of buy it as you assume people do, then the money to buy the game is still with them, correct? They can spend it elsewhere in the market. This money does not evaportate, and pirates money is just as good on the market as anyone elses



FayeC on 11 August 2009
amp316 said:
FayeC said:
amp316 said:
FayeC said:
amp316 said:
zexen_lowe said:
I won't post my thoughts on piracy because everyone on this site knows them. I just think that those stalwart anti-piracy defenders might wanna try to live some years in a third-world country. Let's see how much you oppose piracy when what you earn isn't enough to buy a single original game

I can't afford a Ferrari and want one so what should I do? 

Well if you can manage a free one, while not taking some one else's car then I suggest you do it! If you could in fact pull a farrari out of thin air, you certainly would not need to buy one anymore, but its silly to say you stole something that would not have exisited had it not been for your own efforts.

If I and everyone else did that, it would hurt the manufacturer and then Ferraris would not exist anymore.  

Pirating games does the same thing.  It takes money out of the manufacturer's pocket and hurts the gaming industry.  

But it doesnt take money out of anyone's pocket. It doesnt take ANYTHING anywhere. It creates a new product, one that didnt exist before, and one that certainly can't "belong" to some one else.

 

If anything, it serves to help the consumer. By making sure the consumer gets a fair deal on games, the industy is made stronger. Used games do this similarly. When someone buys a used game for 5 bucks less than the new copy, its almost a sure thing they think the new game is too expensive.

You are wrong.  If everyone could get a "copy" of anything, most people wouldn't pay for anything.  I could get a copy of all of my clothes, food, games, vehicles, toilet paper, tooth paste, etc. and according to you this wouldn't be hurting anyone.  If everyone could do this with everything and thought like you, then the economy would completely crash, no companies would exist, and we'd be back in the dark ages hunting for food with sharpened sticks.  I know that this is an extreme example, but that is the road that things would eventually go down.  

Certainly, we would just copy the next person's food right? Or at least copy their more advanced "sharper" stick. Being able to pirate real world items would certainly change things,  Though I dont agree they would before the worse, a lot of good could be done. Instead of that though, i suppose we must think of the profits.



Around the Network
Wonktonodi on 11 August 2009
FayeC said:
By no means are the laws flawless but at what point does one draw the line between it's ok to download it for nothing vs paying for it?  I can understand why many do it.  Sometimes the prices can be crazy especially in the smaller markets, but when some come up with "well I wouldn't have bought it anyway " as an excuse to steal bugs me.  If you were interested in it enough to download it  why not check rewies ask your friends try and rent it or a demo,  wait to see if the price drops or if you can find it used.  But to blatently say never means you probably shouldn't be playing it in the first place.

This doesn't make much sense to me. Surely there are things you wont try on your own dollar? Now how many of those things would you try for free? I tried carrot cake flavored ice cream today for the first time and ended up buying a pint all because someone asked if i would like to sample it.

But when you copy you aren't just trying it not on your dollar you are taking the full thing.  It's not like you tried the demo or rented it first you stole it to start with.



FayeC on 11 August 2009
Wonktonodi said:
FayeC said:
By no means are the laws flawless but at what point does one draw the line between it's ok to download it for nothing vs paying for it?  I can understand why many do it.  Sometimes the prices can be crazy especially in the smaller markets, but when some come up with "well I wouldn't have bought it anyway " as an excuse to steal bugs me.  If you were interested in it enough to download it  why not check rewies ask your friends try and rent it or a demo,  wait to see if the price drops or if you can find it used.  But to blatently say never means you probably shouldn't be playing it in the first place.

This doesn't make much sense to me. Surely there are things you wont try on your own dollar? Now how many of those things would you try for free? I tried carrot cake flavored ice cream today for the first time and ended up buying a pint all because someone asked if i would like to sample it.

But when you copy you aren't just trying it not on your dollar you are taking the full thing.  It's not like you tried the demo or rented it first you stole it to start with.

Compeletly true. I read your comment to mean that just because you were not willing to pay for something, you had no business playing it. I only meant that many people are up for trying things that they dont have to risk there own money to look further into. Once they have tried it, well then they are in a much better position to make up their mind. This applies to ice cream and to games imo.



Gnizmo on 11 August 2009
Wonktonodi said:

But when you copy you aren't just trying it not on your dollar you are taking the full thing.  It's not like you tried the demo or rented it first you stole it to start with.

But you aren't playing it on someone elses dollar either. Ok well technically you are playing it on the dollar of whoever bought it the first time. But they are obviously ok with that. Digressions aside there is nothing tangible lost by anyone involved. Nothing has been stolen as nothing is missing. Sure very few people buy after pirating it, but that is something. Not a terribly strong argument thought, I admit.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Zizzla_Rachet on 11 August 2009

It's not theft...It's Infringement



 



Wonktonodi on 11 August 2009
FayeC said:
superchunk said:
FayeC said:
superchunk said:
NJ5 said:
It all depends on whether you would have bought the game if you hadn't pirated it.

This is to all of you who make the same illogical arguement.

You're still stealing the profit that could be earned. If you want to try the game out, play the demo. If you really want to play the full game

1. buy it new

2. buy it used from ebay for far less

3. get an account from one of those online renters

Basically, any time you gain a copy you did not some how pay for, you are stealing from the people who created it. There is no way around that simple fact.

If your logic held true, you could take that 60" HDTV, since you wouldn't have bought it anyways.

Your logic isnt very sound - Why is this user stealing profit buy pirating a game he wouldn't have bought anyway? If anything its a free as since this person could by a sequal or DLC for the game. In fact, even if they pirate the DLC and the sequal what has the company lost except the opportunity to sell him a game? That opportunity can't be assigned a numerical value the way so many try to.

 

If you would encorage them to buy used then your position isnt very steady, as that makes the people that created the game just as much money  as a pirated copy  would. Pirated games, like used games are rival goods to new games.

If someone never stole games, they would eventually buy some since they like to play games. Thus, its lost profit somewhere in the chain.

Buying used allows someone else to recoup money spent on that single copy, with that they are able to buy another new game. That's why used is not the same as piracy and still good for the industry.

Maybe they would, but maybe they wouldnt.  You  might assume a game enthusiast would find a way to play games some other way, but you certainly can't assign a number to it.  but you can't assign it 0 either and act like it has no effect.

 

And buying used gives someone else money, thats to be sure, but assuming they will spend it on a new game is a huge leap to make. Maybe they will buy a new game, maybe they will buy a used one, perhaps they will buy a big mac, and put some quarters in a MVS machine while at the burger place? I find the leaps you are making to be far to broad to use such extreme judgements.

But when you steal the game you aren't paying someone for something you then use.  There are alwasy posibilites on can look into but the end result is that you took something without paying for it.  Maybe you would want it maybe not but you also enable others to get it without paying for it and so on.  It's not just you and although you can't say every single copy that gets made is a lost sale.  Some of them are.  In one way shape or form when you have as many peolpe pirating things as you do if they coldn't get it for free some would save up some would rent some would just ignore it some would wait for the price to go down.  Some might try out a friends copy and if they really don't like it not get it or if they love it they might.

He's still right though that even buying the games used helps the industry because there are still only so many of the used games out there.  So for those that want it enough someone will buy it new.