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Forums - Sales - COD 4 Pc sold less than 2 million units? Piracy is to blame?

and again, shio comes in with a LOT of claims, but without ONE single source.



Imagine not having GamePass on your console...

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shio said:

There are more PC games being bought on Digital Distribution than on Retail, right now.

Yep.

I disagree with a lot of your last post- COD 4 sold very well, but it isn't a Half Life/ Sims/ WoW seller by any means, and it won't get anywhere near 10 million sales- but I'd agree totally with the quoted statement, given the figures I posted earlier.

Frankly, I'm utterly amazed that the owner of a site dedicated to video game sales is so completely out of touch with the size of the digital download market.



ssj12 said:
ioi said:
@ssj12 - I'm not sure what you're saying.

Publishers don't release figures for 95% of retail games, the only ones that get featured in financial reports are the games doing 2-3m+. They are picked out as examples of titles that have been successful.

Battlefield 1943 had a huge opening two weeks ago - by far the biggest ever for a downaload game (it took ~40% of all XBLA sales for July with just a weeks worth of sales). It was reported because it was a success.

Download sales for most download games don't get reported in financial reports seperately since they don't normally sell that much, the same reason why 100s of retail games never have sales revealed.

Even if a game isn't reported on financial reports companies like us, the NPD Group, GfK, etc should be able to get the sales information from publishers but we can't.

Also yes BF1943's record sales were announced but how many copies were sold?

I believe the reason for this is B&M retailers, like Scoobes second point states. Employees at Gamestop are not allowed to talk about DD sources including the PSN, XBLA, and WiiWare because they do not get any revenue from sales of titles on any DD service.

This is also why Sony cannot stop UMD game production even though the PSP Go is digital download only. If they canned the PSP-3000 or any future PSPs with UMD drives without providing even vouchers of some form to retail sell no retailer in the world but Sony would sell it.

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/59665

600.000 in the first 3 weeks on both XBLA and PSN



shio said:
ioi said:

@ssj12 - I don't agree. When Activision say 14 million copies of COD4:MW they will be referring to retail copies and downloads - they both count as a "sale" for Activision.

Also most publishers are counting dowload sales - it is just that the sales are relatively small in most cases.

When Activision list total sales, top sellers etc it will be inclusive of everything - retail, MMO, dowloads, expansion packs - every way they they have made money basically.

Almost no publisher releases figures of digital sales because that only undermines their relations with retailers, or because they have too much at stake on retail. The only big publisher I can think of that talks of digital sales is EA, but that might be because EA is the major publisher that is currently pushing the digital and online business more than any other major publisher.

And is false that when Activision talks of figures, they're for worldwide or includes digital sales. When they said that COD4 sold 7 millions, everyone thought that it was a worldwide figure, but infact it was a figure from only about 6 countries, which were tracked by NPD, Charttrack and GFK. They didn't include dozens of countries, nearly all of them PC-centric markets. They didn't include a single country from eastern europe, where Stalker sold 1 million.

That 7 million figure actually helped in knowing how much COD4 it had sold on PC, in those markets. I had estimated that around 2.2 millions from those 7 millions were from the PC version, and that didn't even include dozens of PC-centric markets or digital sales. http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/post.php?id=2436222

There's just NO WAY that COD4, which dominated PC Retail charts for months, dominated Digital charts for ages, and is still selling even now, NO WAY that it only sold around Stalker, a game that did not even appear more than a couple of times on retail charts and barely set foot on top digital charts.

COD4 sold ABOVE the level of Sims 2 and World of Warcraft in it's first year, and even now it still has strong legs, especially considering it hasn't even dropped in price.

Zlejedi said:
im_sneaky said:
I would find it VERY hard to believe Cod4 pc and stalker selled in the same ballapark. that just doesn't seem right. I won't give a number but... all my intuition points to 2m being WAY too low.Cod4 had mad legs AND a great start.... 2m is way too low.


COD actually is not that big on PC.

I can tell you that Stalker had much bigger hype in Poland then any of pc versions of COD.

Also on PC market a lot of sales are made through various budget reeditions or collections while COD4 has been kept at RRP for ages.

 

Call of Duty is easily one of the biggest FPS franchises on PC, on par with Counter-Strike and Half-Life.

Almost no one ever heard of Stalker until it actually came out. If there was hype it was probably only in eastern europe, where the stalker franchise is much more known.

ioi said:
@ssj12 - I'm not sure what you're saying.

Publishers don't release figures for 95% of retail games, the only ones that get featured in financial reports are the games doing 2-3m+. They are picked out as examples of titles that have been successful.

Battlefield 1943 had a huge opening two weeks ago - by far the biggest ever for a downaload game (it took ~40% of all XBLA sales for July with just a weeks worth of sales). It was reported because it was a success.

Download sales for most download games don't get reported in financial reports seperately since they don't normally sell that much, the same reason why 100s of retail games never have sales revealed.

There are more PC games being bought on Digital Distribution than on Retail, right now.


lol, there you go with your 2007 article again :)  You think that, possibly, they may have not had worldwide numbers yet because the game had only been out a month?  LOL, seriously Shio, why don't you looking at some current numbers.  Just because that article (that was written a month after the game came out) only listed those tracking firms numbers does not mean that every subsequent report is like that.  In fact, the farther we get away from the release of the game the more accurate Activisions numbers are. 



Mudface said:
shio said:

There are more PC games being bought on Digital Distribution than on Retail, right now.

Yep.

I disagree with a lot of your last post- COD 4 sold very well, but it isn't a Half Life/ Sims/ WoW seller by any means, and it won't get anywhere near 10 million sales- but I'd agree totally with the quoted statement, given the figures I posted earlier.

Frankly, I'm utterly amazed that the owner of a site dedicated to video game sales is so completely out of touch with the size of the digital download market.

lol, or maybe you are out of touch on the size of the digital distribution market.  ioi has a lot more data and experience in this area than we do and I think he would know better than us.  Also, he isn't the only one that thinks that.  NPD came out and said that digital distribution only acounted for about 5% of the gaming industry. 

Now, if you include piracy in digital distribution, than it might be as big as you think, but the people that actually pay for digital downloads are still pretty minor.



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shio said:
ioi said:

@ssj12 - I don't agree. When Activision say 14 million copies of COD4:MW they will be referring to retail copies and downloads - they both count as a "sale" for Activision.

Also most publishers are counting dowload sales - it is just that the sales are relatively small in most cases.

When Activision list total sales, top sellers etc it will be inclusive of everything - retail, MMO, dowloads, expansion packs - every way they they have made money basically.

Almost no publisher releases figures of digital sales because that only undermines their relations with retailers, or because they have too much at stake on retail. The only big publisher I can think of that talks of digital sales is EA, but that might be because EA is the major publisher that is currently pushing the digital and online business more than any other major publisher.

And is false that when Activision talks of figures, they're for worldwide or includes digital sales. When they said that COD4 sold 7 millions, everyone thought that it was a worldwide figure, but infact it was a figure from only about 6 countries, which were tracked by NPD, Charttrack and GFK. They didn't include dozens of countries, nearly all of them PC-centric markets. They didn't include a single country from eastern europe, where Stalker sold 1 million.

That 7 million figure actually helped in knowing how much COD4 it had sold on PC, in those markets. I had estimated that around 2.2 millions from those 7 millions were from the PC version, and that didn't even include dozens of PC-centric markets or digital sales. http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/post.php?id=2436222

There's just NO WAY that COD4, which dominated PC Retail charts for months, dominated Digital charts for ages, and is still selling even now, NO WAY that it only sold around Stalker, a game that did not even appear more than a couple of times on retail charts and barely set foot on top digital charts.

COD4 sold ABOVE the level of Sims 2 and World of Warcraft in it's first year, and even now it still has strong legs, especially considering it hasn't even dropped in price.

Zlejedi said:
im_sneaky said:
I would find it VERY hard to believe Cod4 pc and stalker selled in the same ballapark. that just doesn't seem right. I won't give a number but... all my intuition points to 2m being WAY too low.Cod4 had mad legs AND a great start.... 2m is way too low.


COD actually is not that big on PC.

I can tell you that Stalker had much bigger hype in Poland then any of pc versions of COD.

Also on PC market a lot of sales are made through various budget reeditions or collections while COD4 has been kept at RRP for ages.

 

Call of Duty is easily one of the biggest FPS franchises on PC, on par with Counter-Strike and Half-Life.

Almost no one ever heard of Stalker until it actually came out. If there was hype it was probably only in eastern europe, where the stalker franchise is much more known.

ioi said:
@ssj12 - I'm not sure what you're saying.

Publishers don't release figures for 95% of retail games, the only ones that get featured in financial reports are the games doing 2-3m+. They are picked out as examples of titles that have been successful.

Battlefield 1943 had a huge opening two weeks ago - by far the biggest ever for a downaload game (it took ~40% of all XBLA sales for July with just a weeks worth of sales). It was reported because it was a success.

Download sales for most download games don't get reported in financial reports seperately since they don't normally sell that much, the same reason why 100s of retail games never have sales revealed.

There are more PC games being bought on Digital Distribution than on Retail, right now.

Yes but PC retail market is small. Crisis sold only 70k in it's first month in the US according to NPD. What was the number for CoD 4 PC, 100k?

You mean that the first months sales in USA (right before Christmas) accounts for only 1% of CoD4's ww lifetime sales? Quite ridiculous.

(or in other words, you claim CoD4 managed to multiply it's 1st month US retail sales by a magnitude of 100 on the PC)



gergroy said:
shio said:
ioi said:

@ssj12 - I don't agree. When Activision say 14 million copies of COD4:MW they will be referring to retail copies and downloads - they both count as a "sale" for Activision.

Also most publishers are counting dowload sales - it is just that the sales are relatively small in most cases.

When Activision list total sales, top sellers etc it will be inclusive of everything - retail, MMO, dowloads, expansion packs - every way they they have made money basically.

Almost no publisher releases figures of digital sales because that only undermines their relations with retailers, or because they have too much at stake on retail. The only big publisher I can think of that talks of digital sales is EA, but that might be because EA is the major publisher that is currently pushing the digital and online business more than any other major publisher.

And is false that when Activision talks of figures, they're for worldwide or includes digital sales. When they said that COD4 sold 7 millions, everyone thought that it was a worldwide figure, but infact it was a figure from only about 6 countries, which were tracked by NPD, Charttrack and GFK. They didn't include dozens of countries, nearly all of them PC-centric markets. They didn't include a single country from eastern europe, where Stalker sold 1 million.

That 7 million figure actually helped in knowing how much COD4 it had sold on PC, in those markets. I had estimated that around 2.2 millions from those 7 millions were from the PC version, and that didn't even include dozens of PC-centric markets or digital sales. http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/post.php?id=2436222

There's just NO WAY that COD4, which dominated PC Retail charts for months, dominated Digital charts for ages, and is still selling even now, NO WAY that it only sold around Stalker, a game that did not even appear more than a couple of times on retail charts and barely set foot on top digital charts.

COD4 sold ABOVE the level of Sims 2 and World of Warcraft in it's first year, and even now it still has strong legs, especially considering it hasn't even dropped in price.

Zlejedi said:
im_sneaky said:
I would find it VERY hard to believe Cod4 pc and stalker selled in the same ballapark. that just doesn't seem right. I won't give a number but... all my intuition points to 2m being WAY too low.Cod4 had mad legs AND a great start.... 2m is way too low.


COD actually is not that big on PC.

I can tell you that Stalker had much bigger hype in Poland then any of pc versions of COD.

Also on PC market a lot of sales are made through various budget reeditions or collections while COD4 has been kept at RRP for ages.

 

Call of Duty is easily one of the biggest FPS franchises on PC, on par with Counter-Strike and Half-Life.

Almost no one ever heard of Stalker until it actually came out. If there was hype it was probably only in eastern europe, where the stalker franchise is much more known.

ioi said:
@ssj12 - I'm not sure what you're saying.

Publishers don't release figures for 95% of retail games, the only ones that get featured in financial reports are the games doing 2-3m+. They are picked out as examples of titles that have been successful.

Battlefield 1943 had a huge opening two weeks ago - by far the biggest ever for a downaload game (it took ~40% of all XBLA sales for July with just a weeks worth of sales). It was reported because it was a success.

Download sales for most download games don't get reported in financial reports seperately since they don't normally sell that much, the same reason why 100s of retail games never have sales revealed.

There are more PC games being bought on Digital Distribution than on Retail, right now.


lol, there you go with your 2007 article again :)  You think that, possibly, they may have not had worldwide numbers yet because the game had only been out a month?  LOL, seriously Shio, why don't you looking at some current numbers.  Just because that article (that was written a month after the game came out) only listed those tracking firms numbers does not mean that every subsequent report is like that.  In fact, the farther we get away from the release of the game the more accurate Activisions numbers are. 

When Activision released that 7 million figure they didn't say it was actually from only a few markets, and EVERY gaming website reported it as worldwide figures! It was only after that Activision told them that it wasn't worldwide. Also, if you look at Activision's own financial reports, they are very keen on mentioning NPD, GFK and Charttrack in them.

My guess is that Activision must have some sort of business going on with the manufacturers of it's retail copies that doesn't allow them to quickly access their own game sales, or even access it.

Also, if the 14 million figure were worldwide, then the PC sales of COD4 would actually DECREASE, since I estimated it to be 2.2 millions when it was 7 million, but when it's 14 million the PC sales would be LESS THAN 2 millions!!!!! That's absurd!



gergroy said:
Mudface said:
shio said:

There are more PC games being bought on Digital Distribution than on Retail, right now.

Yep.

I disagree with a lot of your last post- COD 4 sold very well, but it isn't a Half Life/ Sims/ WoW seller by any means, and it won't get anywhere near 10 million sales- but I'd agree totally with the quoted statement, given the figures I posted earlier.

Frankly, I'm utterly amazed that the owner of a site dedicated to video game sales is so completely out of touch with the size of the digital download market.

lol, or maybe you are out of touch on the size of the digital distribution market.  ioi has a lot more data and experience in this area than we do and I think he would know better than us.  Also, he isn't the only one that thinks that.  NPD came out and said that digital distribution only acounted for about 5% of the gaming industry. 

Now, if you include piracy in digital distribution, than it might be as big as you think, but the people that actually pay for digital downloads are still pretty minor.

Did you read the article I linked to? Here it is again. Do you know who Kieron Gillen is? He's a proper journalist, writes for the Guardian and that, dontcha know. Basically, he doesn't need to make things up to sell a web site. Do you know who Chart Track are? They're the UK equivalent to NPD. They don't need to make things up either. Why would they?

As an out to your hero, the article states US DD was around $600 million last year, which isn't far off the number ioi quoted. But, and here's the big thing-

How big is digital distribution? In terms of the core-market – that is, gamers like us buying on clients like Steam -they estimate 600 million dollars for the NA market. They believe it’ll break the billion – 1068 – in this year. The real question is why aren’t these in the charts. The problem is that while some retailers are interested in it – especially certain individual companies – others are more reticent. Since most of the individual publishers have their own direct download solution, you need more than a few token ones to avoid skewing the chart. I approach Bloch after the panel to ask when he thinks people will move this way – Valve’s reluctance to release actual hard data is something that regularly frustrates me – he believes it’ll work similarly to how digital sales worked in the music industry. That is, a gradual uptake, with a give and take of information – a little at first, and when nothing terrible happens – a little more. Soon we’ll reach the point where it becomes clear that not giving up numbers leads to less publicity compared to those that do. In other words, it’s a slow natural process and we have to wait for it to work out.

VG Chartz just seems massively out of touch with DD. As it's the next big thang, I'd suggest they get on it.



Slimebeast said:
shio said:
ioi said:

@ssj12 - I don't agree. When Activision say 14 million copies of COD4:MW they will be referring to retail copies and downloads - they both count as a "sale" for Activision.

Also most publishers are counting dowload sales - it is just that the sales are relatively small in most cases.

When Activision list total sales, top sellers etc it will be inclusive of everything - retail, MMO, dowloads, expansion packs - every way they they have made money basically.

Almost no publisher releases figures of digital sales because that only undermines their relations with retailers, or because they have too much at stake on retail. The only big publisher I can think of that talks of digital sales is EA, but that might be because EA is the major publisher that is currently pushing the digital and online business more than any other major publisher.

And is false that when Activision talks of figures, they're for worldwide or includes digital sales. When they said that COD4 sold 7 millions, everyone thought that it was a worldwide figure, but infact it was a figure from only about 6 countries, which were tracked by NPD, Charttrack and GFK. They didn't include dozens of countries, nearly all of them PC-centric markets. They didn't include a single country from eastern europe, where Stalker sold 1 million.

That 7 million figure actually helped in knowing how much COD4 it had sold on PC, in those markets. I had estimated that around 2.2 millions from those 7 millions were from the PC version, and that didn't even include dozens of PC-centric markets or digital sales. http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/post.php?id=2436222

There's just NO WAY that COD4, which dominated PC Retail charts for months, dominated Digital charts for ages, and is still selling even now, NO WAY that it only sold around Stalker, a game that did not even appear more than a couple of times on retail charts and barely set foot on top digital charts.

COD4 sold ABOVE the level of Sims 2 and World of Warcraft in it's first year, and even now it still has strong legs, especially considering it hasn't even dropped in price.

Zlejedi said:
im_sneaky said:
I would find it VERY hard to believe Cod4 pc and stalker selled in the same ballapark. that just doesn't seem right. I won't give a number but... all my intuition points to 2m being WAY too low.Cod4 had mad legs AND a great start.... 2m is way too low.


COD actually is not that big on PC.

I can tell you that Stalker had much bigger hype in Poland then any of pc versions of COD.

Also on PC market a lot of sales are made through various budget reeditions or collections while COD4 has been kept at RRP for ages.

 

Call of Duty is easily one of the biggest FPS franchises on PC, on par with Counter-Strike and Half-Life.

Almost no one ever heard of Stalker until it actually came out. If there was hype it was probably only in eastern europe, where the stalker franchise is much more known.

ioi said:
@ssj12 - I'm not sure what you're saying.

Publishers don't release figures for 95% of retail games, the only ones that get featured in financial reports are the games doing 2-3m+. They are picked out as examples of titles that have been successful.

Battlefield 1943 had a huge opening two weeks ago - by far the biggest ever for a downaload game (it took ~40% of all XBLA sales for July with just a weeks worth of sales). It was reported because it was a success.

Download sales for most download games don't get reported in financial reports seperately since they don't normally sell that much, the same reason why 100s of retail games never have sales revealed.

There are more PC games being bought on Digital Distribution than on Retail, right now.

Yes but PC retail market is small. Crisis sold only 70k in it's first month in the US according to NPD. What was the number for CoD 4 PC, 100k?

You mean that the first months sales in USA (right before Christmas) accounts for only 1% of CoD4's ww lifetime sales? Quite ridiculous.

Crysis sold 1 million in 45 days, and reached 1.5 millions in less than 6 months. It's probably above 2 millions now, and who knows it might sell over 3 millions lifetime.

 

gergroy said:
Mudface said:
shio said:

There are more PC games being bought on Digital Distribution than on Retail, right now.

Yep.

I disagree with a lot of your last post- COD 4 sold very well, but it isn't a Half Life/ Sims/ WoW seller by any means, and it won't get anywhere near 10 million sales- but I'd agree totally with the quoted statement, given the figures I posted earlier.

Frankly, I'm utterly amazed that the owner of a site dedicated to video game sales is so completely out of touch with the size of the digital download market.

lol, or maybe you are out of touch on the size of the digital distribution market.  ioi has a lot more data and experience in this area than we do and I think he would know better than us.  Also, he isn't the only one that thinks that.  NPD came out and said that digital distribution only acounted for about 5% of the gaming industry. 

Now, if you include piracy in digital distribution, than it might be as big as you think, but the people that actually pay for digital downloads are still pretty minor.

Those 5% are for the Console industry, not PC. On PC, Digital Distribution had 22% in 2008, and that percentage will increase even more this year, surpassing retail.



shio said:
Slimebeast said:
shio said:
ioi said:

@ssj12 - I don't agree. When Activision say 14 million copies of COD4:MW they will be referring to retail copies and downloads - they both count as a "sale" for Activision.

Also most publishers are counting dowload sales - it is just that the sales are relatively small in most cases.

When Activision list total sales, top sellers etc it will be inclusive of everything - retail, MMO, dowloads, expansion packs - every way they they have made money basically.

Almost no publisher releases figures of digital sales because that only undermines their relations with retailers, or because they have too much at stake on retail. The only big publisher I can think of that talks of digital sales is EA, but that might be because EA is the major publisher that is currently pushing the digital and online business more than any other major publisher.

And is false that when Activision talks of figures, they're for worldwide or includes digital sales. When they said that COD4 sold 7 millions, everyone thought that it was a worldwide figure, but infact it was a figure from only about 6 countries, which were tracked by NPD, Charttrack and GFK. They didn't include dozens of countries, nearly all of them PC-centric markets. They didn't include a single country from eastern europe, where Stalker sold 1 million.

That 7 million figure actually helped in knowing how much COD4 it had sold on PC, in those markets. I had estimated that around 2.2 millions from those 7 millions were from the PC version, and that didn't even include dozens of PC-centric markets or digital sales. http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/post.php?id=2436222

There's just NO WAY that COD4, which dominated PC Retail charts for months, dominated Digital charts for ages, and is still selling even now, NO WAY that it only sold around Stalker, a game that did not even appear more than a couple of times on retail charts and barely set foot on top digital charts.

COD4 sold ABOVE the level of Sims 2 and World of Warcraft in it's first year, and even now it still has strong legs, especially considering it hasn't even dropped in price.

Zlejedi said:
im_sneaky said:
I would find it VERY hard to believe Cod4 pc and stalker selled in the same ballapark. that just doesn't seem right. I won't give a number but... all my intuition points to 2m being WAY too low.Cod4 had mad legs AND a great start.... 2m is way too low.


COD actually is not that big on PC.

I can tell you that Stalker had much bigger hype in Poland then any of pc versions of COD.

Also on PC market a lot of sales are made through various budget reeditions or collections while COD4 has been kept at RRP for ages.

 

Call of Duty is easily one of the biggest FPS franchises on PC, on par with Counter-Strike and Half-Life.

Almost no one ever heard of Stalker until it actually came out. If there was hype it was probably only in eastern europe, where the stalker franchise is much more known.

ioi said:
@ssj12 - I'm not sure what you're saying.

Publishers don't release figures for 95% of retail games, the only ones that get featured in financial reports are the games doing 2-3m+. They are picked out as examples of titles that have been successful.

Battlefield 1943 had a huge opening two weeks ago - by far the biggest ever for a downaload game (it took ~40% of all XBLA sales for July with just a weeks worth of sales). It was reported because it was a success.

Download sales for most download games don't get reported in financial reports seperately since they don't normally sell that much, the same reason why 100s of retail games never have sales revealed.

There are more PC games being bought on Digital Distribution than on Retail, right now.

Yes but PC retail market is small. Crisis sold only 70k in it's first month in the US according to NPD. What was the number for CoD 4 PC, 100k?

You mean that the first months sales in USA (right before Christmas) accounts for only 1% of CoD4's ww lifetime sales? Quite ridiculous.

Crysis sold 1 million in 45 days, and reached 1.5 millions in less than 6 months. It's probably above 2 millions now, and who knows it might sell over 3 millions lifetime.

 


Shipped.

Now youre gonna say 'why did they ship another 500,000 if the first shipment didnt sell well' but no. The reason for the 1.5 mill during 6 months could be Crisis extensively being bundled with graphics cards. That happend not long after Christmas 2007, Crisis bundled with many many PC GPUs. CryTek told this themselves.